Could he be more overrated?

[Controller Jacobs]

This might be the first time the only player from my high school (Tom Herr) has appeared in a post in this forum.

Some of us player the online sim game whatifsports for a while, and Herr's 1985 season was nearly perfect for that game.

[joncarlos]

Re AROD and 3B, there are three guys on Sour Masher's list who played a lot of games at another position too -- Ripkin 3B, Banks 1B, Yount CF. And I have no idea if Wagner ever shifted positions.

Wagner played other positions but was primarily a shortstop. Banks earned almost all of his value at SS. Ditto Ripken. They just piled up counting stats at other positions. A-Rod has still provided more value at SS at this point so I guess he's a shortstop. Yount is more like A-Rod, he did still have more value at SS but contributed actual value in CF. PEDs or no, I'm going:

1. Honus
2. A-Rod
----
3. Ripken
4. Jeter
----
5. Ozzie
6. Arky Vaughan
----
7. Larkin
8. Yount
9. Banks
10. George Davis / Bill Dahlen / Lou Boudreau / Luke Appling / Joe Cronin / some other old guy I don't know how to rank

[Controller Jacobs]

All-time SS is very difficult to rate. Wagner has plenty seasons at SS with 50+ errors and a 2+dWAR. Luke Appling played in an era of defensive shortstops - he had a terrific oWAR throughout his career, but his offensive stats are really boring outside of 1936.

Jeter's B-R comps scores are low, but the results include more 2B like Biggio, Gehinger and Frisch. Guys with + speed, + position, + OBP, + durability. Exactly what you'd want to build a team around.

[Vecmizer]

I am going to get crucified but....

In my mind if there was no Yankee mystique and he played in any other city he could be likened to Robin Yount/Barry Larkin. A good shortstop, A HOFer and one to be revered but not a top 5. I think he is a great player but I look at him and think since Arod came to the Yanks he was clearly the2nd best SS and third best defensive SS on the team and was unwilling to move from the position for the betterment of his team. It was his position regardless if Arod was better or if it hurt the team. Ya that's the guy I want as my captain and believe is one of the best of all time.

[Hammer]

[QUOTE=Vecmizer;157328]I am going to get crucified but....

In my mind if there was no Yankee mystique and he played in any other city he could be likened to Robin Yount/Barry Larkin. A good shortstop, A HOFer and one to be revered but not a top 5. I think he is a great player but I look at him and think since Arod came to the Yanks he was clearly the2nd best SS and third best defensive SS on the team and was unwilling to move from the position for the betterment of his team. It was his position regardless if Arod was better or if it hurt the team. Ya that's the guy I want as my captain and believe is one of the best of all time.[/QUOTE]

In regards to this, there have been many all time greats who had moments of selfishness. Magic Johnson getting Westhead comes to mind. While it may be a slight on Jeter's record, it doesnt tarnish his legacy.

[Controller Jacobs]

Same number of seasons as Larkin (19), Jeter's averaged 21 more games per year. If Larkin had been that durable, his stats would be awesome. Jeter was top two in oWAR fixe times, top 10 eleven times. Larkin got to third in oWAR twice, top ten five times.

[Fresno Bob]

Were you Bellarmine? Trying to remember....

yep, I'm a Bell....stupidest team name ever.....Bulldogs, Badgers, could have come up with something better......when I was in high school, I put together a petition to rename our sports teams to the Bellarmine Inquisition, but the Jesuits vetoed that....

[james33]

I am going to get crucified but....

since Arod came to the Yanks he was clearly the2nd best SS and third best defensive SS on the team and was unwilling to move from the position for the betterment of his team.

But when ARod came to the Yankees, did Jeter really believe that the Yankees would be better defensively if he moved to 3B and ARod played SS? He is a confident athlete with an adoring fanbase and positive press. And did Joe Torre (I think manager at the time?) even suggest it to Jeter?

[DJBeasties]

To answer my own rhetorical question: No.

[Vecmizer]

But when ARod came to the Yankees, did Jeter really believe that the Yankees would be better defensively if he moved to 3B and ARod played SS? He is a confident athlete with an adoring fanbase and positive press. And did Joe Torre (I think manager at the time?) even suggest it to Jeter?

If Jeter didnt believe it he was the only one. Did Torre suggest? who knows? But as much as every fan and media outlet discussed it and the numerous reports that he wouldn't move, I have no doubts. Just because fans and media kiss your backside does not make you a god or better than anyone else. This is what many people not just athletes do not understand.

[Don Quixote]

yep, I'm a Bell....stupidest team name ever.....Bulldogs, Badgers, could have come up with something better......when I was in high school, I put together a petition to rename our sports teams to the Bellarmine Inquisition, but the Jesuits vetoed that....

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[onejayhawk]

Well, if you are including AROD, I could see how Jeter is out of the top 5 for some. I know he played a ton of games there, but it is hard for me to see AROD as a SS after all these years. And the repeated PED usage--I just don't know what to make of that. In terms of intangibles--I know some around here cringe at that word--I think most would agree Jeter was the better Yankee of the two.

My top 7, without AROD, because again, I don't know what to do with his combo is stats and PED usage at this point, not to mention him playing so much of his career at 3b, would be:

1. Honus Wagner
2. Cal Ripkin Jr
3. Ernie Banks
4. Derek Jeter
5. Ozzie Smith
6. Robin Yount
7. Barry Larkin

I admit that I may be selling defense at SS short by putting Smith below Jeter, but it is hard for me to wrap my head around Smith being so much better on D that it overcomes how much worse at the plate he was. I also realize I'm leaving off a few pre-WWII guys that may be top 10 contenders. Hard to make those comparisons. Wagner is an exception, because he was so much better than anyone else at the time, or since, he really stands out. So, I think Jeter is 4th, but I can see a case from 4-8, depending on who you count at SS, and how much you weigh his D against him.

How can you include Yount and Banks, but not ARod?

Mostly off the top of my head, Honus, Ripkin, ARod and Banks are all clearly ahead IMO. The next group has Appling, Trammel, Cronin, Boudreau, Vaughn, Ozzie, Yount and Jeter. Comparisons get difficult, but the list is only 12, so I will give him a top 10. I do not see an argument that he is clearly top 5 unless you throw out ARod, Banks and Yount.

Jeter is a great player, but his playing in a media center and on a dynasty adds a mystique that has little to do with the quality of his play.

J