Originally posted by Pogues
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Could he be more overrated?
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Originally posted by Erik View PostRe AROD and 3B, there are three guys on Sour Masher's list who played a lot of games at another position too -- Ripkin 3B, Banks 1B, Yount CF. And I have no idea if Wagner ever shifted positions.
1. Honus
2. A-Rod
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3. Ripken
4. Jeter
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5. Ozzie
6. Arky Vaughan
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7. Larkin
8. Yount
9. Banks
10. George Davis / Bill Dahlen / Lou Boudreau / Luke Appling / Joe Cronin / some other old guy I don't know how to rank
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All-time SS is very difficult to rate. Wagner has plenty seasons at SS with 50+ errors and a 2+dWAR. Luke Appling played in an era of defensive shortstops - he had a terrific oWAR throughout his career, but his offensive stats are really boring outside of 1936.
Jeter's B-R comps scores are low, but the results include more 2B like Biggio, Gehinger and Frisch. Guys with + speed, + position, + OBP, + durability. Exactly what you'd want to build a team around.people called me an idiot for burning popcorn in the microwave, but i know the real truth. - nullnor
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I am going to get crucified but....
In my mind if there was no Yankee mystique and he played in any other city he could be likened to Robin Yount/Barry Larkin. A good shortstop, A HOFer and one to be revered but not a top 5. I think he is a great player but I look at him and think since Arod came to the Yanks he was clearly the2nd best SS and third best defensive SS on the team and was unwilling to move from the position for the betterment of his team. It was his position regardless if Arod was better or if it hurt the team. Ya that's the guy I want as my captain and believe is one of the best of all time.Its not what you've got. Its what you give.
Its not the life you choose. Its the life you live--TESLA
Princess Kate-Kate Marie Hrischuk 9/12/00-1/27/07
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[QUOTE=Vecmizer;157328]I am going to get crucified but....
In my mind if there was no Yankee mystique and he played in any other city he could be likened to Robin Yount/Barry Larkin. A good shortstop, A HOFer and one to be revered but not a top 5. I think he is a great player but I look at him and think since Arod came to the Yanks he was clearly the2nd best SS and third best defensive SS on the team and was unwilling to move from the position for the betterment of his team. It was his position regardless if Arod was better or if it hurt the team. Ya that's the guy I want as my captain and believe is one of the best of all time.[/QUOTE]
In regards to this, there have been many all time greats who had moments of selfishness. Magic Johnson getting Westhead comes to mind. While it may be a slight on Jeter's record, it doesnt tarnish his legacy.After former Broncos quarterback Brian Griese sprained his ankle and said he was tripped on the stairs of his home by his golden retriever, Bella: “The dog stood up on his hind legs and gave him a push? You might want to get rid of that dog, or put him in the circus, one of the two.”
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Same number of seasons as Larkin (19), Jeter's averaged 21 more games per year. If Larkin had been that durable, his stats would be awesome. Jeter was top two in oWAR fixe times, top 10 eleven times. Larkin got to third in oWAR twice, top ten five times.people called me an idiot for burning popcorn in the microwave, but i know the real truth. - nullnor
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Originally posted by eldiablo505Were you Bellarmine? Trying to remember...."You know what's wrong with America? If I lovingly tongue a woman's nipple in a movie, it gets an "NC-17" rating, if I chop it off with a machete, it's an "R". That's what's wrong with America, man...."--Dennis Hopper
"One should judge a man mainly from his depravities. Virtues can be faked. Depravities are real." -- Klaus Kinski
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Originally posted by Vecmizer View PostI am going to get crucified but....
since Arod came to the Yanks he was clearly the2nd best SS and third best defensive SS on the team and was unwilling to move from the position for the betterment of his team.
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Originally posted by james33 View PostBut when ARod came to the Yankees, did Jeter really believe that the Yankees would be better defensively if he moved to 3B and ARod played SS? He is a confident athlete with an adoring fanbase and positive press. And did Joe Torre (I think manager at the time?) even suggest it to Jeter?Its not what you've got. Its what you give.
Its not the life you choose. Its the life you live--TESLA
Princess Kate-Kate Marie Hrischuk 9/12/00-1/27/07
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Originally posted by Fresno Bob View Postyep, I'm a Bell....stupidest team name ever.....Bulldogs, Badgers, could have come up with something better......when I was in high school, I put together a petition to rename our sports teams to the Bellarmine Inquisition, but the Jesuits vetoed that....Only the madman is absolutely sure. -Robert Anton Wilson, novelist (1932-2007)
Faith is believing what you know ain't so. -Mark Twain, author and humorist (1835-1910)
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.
-- William James
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Originally posted by Sour Masher View PostWell, if you are including AROD, I could see how Jeter is out of the top 5 for some. I know he played a ton of games there, but it is hard for me to see AROD as a SS after all these years. And the repeated PED usage--I just don't know what to make of that. In terms of intangibles--I know some around here cringe at that word--I think most would agree Jeter was the better Yankee of the two.
My top 7, without AROD, because again, I don't know what to do with his combo is stats and PED usage at this point, not to mention him playing so much of his career at 3b, would be:
1. Honus Wagner
2. Cal Ripkin Jr
3. Ernie Banks
4. Derek Jeter
5. Ozzie Smith
6. Robin Yount
7. Barry Larkin
I admit that I may be selling defense at SS short by putting Smith below Jeter, but it is hard for me to wrap my head around Smith being so much better on D that it overcomes how much worse at the plate he was. I also realize I'm leaving off a few pre-WWII guys that may be top 10 contenders. Hard to make those comparisons. Wagner is an exception, because he was so much better than anyone else at the time, or since, he really stands out. So, I think Jeter is 4th, but I can see a case from 4-8, depending on who you count at SS, and how much you weigh his D against him.
Mostly off the top of my head, Honus, Ripkin, ARod and Banks are all clearly ahead IMO. The next group has Appling, Trammel, Cronin, Boudreau, Vaughn, Ozzie, Yount and Jeter. Comparisons get difficult, but the list is only 12, so I will give him a top 10. I do not see an argument that he is clearly top 5 unless you throw out ARod, Banks and Yount.
Jeter is a great player, but his playing in a media center and on a dynasty adds a mystique that has little to do with the quality of his play.
JAd Astra per Aspera
Oh. In that case, never mind. - Wonderboy
GITH fails logic 101. - bryanbutler
Bah...OJH caught me. - Pogues
I don't know if you guys are being willfully ignorant, but... - Judge Jude
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