Could he be more overrated?

[DJBeasties]

According to two historical play-by-play-based systems, Baseball Prospectus's Fielding Runs Above Average and Baseball-Reference's Total Zone, Derek Jeter has cost his team more in the field than any other player in history, with both methods assessing the damage at 230 to 260 runs.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9603949/the-tragedy-derek-jeter-defense

[Hornsby]

Paid them all back double with "Intangibles"

[joncarlos]

And yet in spite of that he is still the 6th best SS of all time according to fWAR.

Also, remember that you have to be able to play a long time to accumulate that much negative value.

According to Fangraphs, Omar Vizquel is about 580 runs worse than Derek Jeter on offense. (+330 and -250). Jeter gives back less than half of that on defense. (+131 and -136)

[Controller Jacobs]

Fun with dWAR:

Michael Young:
2002: 1.3 (2B, with ARod at SS)
2003: 0.0
2004: -1.7 (SS, with Alfonso Soriano at 2B)
2005: -2.4
2006: 0.2 (SS, with Ian Kinsler at 2B)
2007: -0.2
2008: 0.4
2009: -1.2 (now at 3B, Andrus appears at SS and Kinsler's dWAR spikes from three years of 0/.8/-.5 up to 2.6)
2010: -0.8
2011: -2.0 (mix of DH, 3B, 1B)
2012: -2.1

It gets really interesting when you look at the 2005 WAR total, comparing him to David Ortiz:
Young/Ortiz 2005 (baseball ref)
- oWAR: 6.3/5.4
- dWAR: -2.4/-1.6
- WAR: 3.2/5.3

Young switched positions in 2005 so that Soriano could butcher 2B (it was his 5th consecutive year leading the AL in errors at 2B), and Young ended up top 5 at SS in both Assists and Fielding %. So presumably a limited range made him a worse fielder than a DH, but he was actually among the top SS at range factor in 2006.

Jeter had Chuck Knoblauch from 1998-2000, and Soriano from 2001-2003. That was Jeter's prime (age 24-29). How much of that would have been removed if he'd had a normal 2B?

[james33]

Jeter had Chuck Knoblauch from 1998-2000, and Soriano from 2001-2003. That was Jeter's prime (age 24-29). How much of that would have been removed if he'd had a normal 2B?

I've never understood how having a sub-par vs superstar defender playing next to a given player affects that player's defensive rating. I'd think that if anything, it'd hurt your defensive rating if you have a superstar playing next to you, since they'd get to more balls that could have gone your way?

[Controller Jacobs]

I've never understood how having a sub-par vs superstar defender playing next to a given player affects that player's defensive rating. I'd think that if anything, it'd hurt your defensive rating if you have a superstar playing next to you, since they'd get to more balls that could have gone your way?

A quick search reveals a high rating can't suppress your neighbor's by itself (again, from B-R):
- Ozzie Smith & Tom Herr, 1982: 3.4 & 1.9 (1st and 7th in the NL)
- Ozzie Smith & Jose Oquendo, 1989: 4.7 & 2.8 (1st and 4th), and Pendleton was 6th with a 2.3 at 3B

[Erik]

"Voodoo sabermetrics" -- George H.W. Bush

[Pogues]

A quick search reveals a high rating can't suppress your neighbor's by itself (again, from B-R):
- Ozzie Smith & Tom Herr, 1982: 3.4 & 1.9 (1st and 7th in the NL)
- Ozzie Smith & Jose Oquendo, 1989: 4.7 & 2.8 (1st and 4th), and Pendleton was 6th with a 2.3 at 3B

This might be the first time the only player from my high school (Tom Herr) has appeared in a post in this forum.

[Don Quixote]

This might be the first time the only player from my high school (Tom Herr) has appeared in a post in this forum.

I know that feeling. My high school produced one player of real note in my lifetime, and I've rarely if ever seen him mentioned here.

[Sour Masher]

Jeter is a top 5 SS of all time, despite his defensive deficiencies, so I don't think he is overrated, overall, unless it is by the most rabid of fans who claim he is the best SS of all time, or a top 10 player of all time, or something of that level. But I don't think anyone claims that. Most fans with any knowledge of defensive stats seem to agree he is an all time great, a clear first ballot HOFer, but was not a good defender at SS. It is just no fan cares--no Yankee fan, who cherished his abilities, and no opposing fans, who would have been gleeful to have him, warts and all.

Complaining about Jeter's D should only come up in the most rarified of historical comparisons as an important differentiator in placing him among the all time greats. Using his D as a way to suggest he was anything less than an all time great though, goes too far, I think.

[onejayhawk]

Jeter is a top 5 SS of all time, despite his defensive deficiencies, so I don't think he is overrated, overall, unless it is by the most rabid of fans who claim he is the best SS of all time, or a top 10 player of all time, or something of that level. But I don't think anyone claims that. Most fans with any knowledge of defensive stats seem to agree he is an all time great, a clear first ballot HOFer, but was not a good defender at SS. It is just no fan cares--no Yankee fan, who cherished his abilities, and no opposing fans, who would have been gleeful to have him, warts and all.

Complaining about Jeter's D should only come up in the most rarified of historical comparisons as an important differentiator in placing him among the all time greats. Using his D as a way to suggest he was anything less than an all time great though, goes too far, I think.

Not top 5, but top 10 for sure. He played for years beside a better SS, even before the PEDs.

J

[Fresno Bob]

This might be the first time the only player from my high school (Tom Herr) has appeared in a post in this forum.

Tom Herr was rated Speed A and Steal A in Stratomatic with the 1986 Cards I think (with Vince Coleman and Willie McGee at AA for both)

Pat Burrell, Kevin Fransen, and Ed Giovanola went to my high school, Dan Pastorini too, and he got drafted by the Mets

We actually have more former NFL players than MLB players come from my school

[revo]

Come on, Jeter is a top 5 SS. Even as a Yankee hater, that's pretty clear. He masked any defensive deficiencies with his trademark hop-jump-throw.

Tommy Herr was mentioned in any thread where low HRs and high RBIs were discussed!

And my HS in Brooklyn has become a basketball powerhouse, but our baseball program lags. As far as I know, we only have Lee Mazzilli & Nelson Figueroa. My college alma mater has Joe Nathan & Tom Koehler as well as 9 draftees last year!

[Sour Masher]

Not top 5, but top 10 for sure. He played for years beside a better SS, even before the PEDs.

J

Well, if you are including AROD, I could see how Jeter is out of the top 5 for some. I know he played a ton of games there, but it is hard for me to see AROD as a SS after all these years. And the repeated PED usage--I just don't know what to make of that. In terms of intangibles--I know some around here cringe at that word--I think most would agree Jeter was the better Yankee of the two.

My top 7, without AROD, because again, I don't know what to do with his combo is stats and PED usage at this point, not to mention him playing so much of his career at 3b, would be:

1. Honus Wagner
2. Cal Ripkin Jr
3. Ernie Banks
4. Derek Jeter
5. Ozzie Smith
6. Robin Yount
7. Barry Larkin

I admit that I may be selling defense at SS short by putting Smith below Jeter, but it is hard for me to wrap my head around Smith being so much better on D that it overcomes how much worse at the plate he was. I also realize I'm leaving off a few pre-WWII guys that may be top 10 contenders. Hard to make those comparisons. Wagner is an exception, because he was so much better than anyone else at the time, or since, he really stands out. So, I think Jeter is 4th, but I can see a case from 4-8, depending on who you count at SS, and how much you weigh his D against him.

[Erik]

Re AROD and 3B, there are three guys on Sour Masher's list who played a lot of games at another position too -- Ripkin 3B, Banks 1B, Yount CF. And I have no idea if Wagner ever shifted positions.