Will Roy Halladay make it to 300 career wins?

[Erik]

in 2007, Glavine went 13-8 to reach 303 career wins, with a meh 97 ERA+. virtually every team does not have a fivesome better than that.

Mets fans would have rather had literally anyone else pitch on the last day of the season, though.

[DMT]

Yeah, but we were supposed to be talking about great pitchers.

Moose doesn't qualify as great in my book.

Nonsense.

[senorsheep]

Yeah, but we were supposed to be talking about great pitchers.

Moose doesn't qualify as great in my book.

He was pretty bad in 2004, 2005, and 2007. 2008 was an impressive spike. Entering his 40's, it's probably more likely that a final 2-3 seasons would have played out like 2004/2005/2007 than 2008, so it's tough to say whether he would have crawled across the "300 Wins" finish line. I think he was probably smart to go out on a high note.

[TS Garp]

Truesense! Mussina was somewhere between good and very good. Definitely not great. I mean, in the post that B-Fly responded to, Cavebird brought up Sandy Koufax when referencing great pitchers. Mussina isn't even on the same planet as Koufax. He's about like Andy Pettitte to me. Both are very good but neither are HoFers and neither is great.

You're selling him short. Koufax is certainly in a different class, to be sure, but Mussina's better than Pettitte. His career ERA+ compares very favorably to Marichal and Palmer.

[revo]

You're selling him short. Koufax is certainly in a different class, to be sure, but Mussina's better than Pettitte. His career ERA+ compares very favorably to Marichal and Palmer.

Yeah. look at the ERA+. Pettitte's is not terrible until he mobes to Houston for his monster '04, but besides that' he's simply above-average. Moose's ERA+ is pretty darn elite most years.

No contest here = Moose > Petttte, and all things considered, Moose >>> Pettitte. Moose is a borderline HOFer, kinda like a Jack Morris of the '90s/'00s.

[B-Fly]

The more interesting question for this thread is Moose versus Halladay, as we think about whether Halladay will stick for 300 wins or go out short like Moose. Baseball Reference has Moose as the pitcher in MLB history with the greatest statistical similarity to Halladay through age 34. Of course, Doc has two Cy Youngs and a World Series ring on Moose, so he's probably building a stronger HOF case for himself.

[Gregg]

Truly some good points on both sides. It just seems too hard to stay healthy for the time he needs to make it.

[wannabegriffey]

The more interesting question for this thread is Moose versus Halladay, as we think about whether Halladay will stick for 300 wins or go out short like Moose. Baseball Reference has Moose as the pitcher in MLB history with the greatest statistical similarity to Halladay through age 34. Of course, Doc has two Cy Youngs and a World Series ring on Moose, so he's probably building a stronger HOF case for himself.

Very surprised that moose has comparable stats to the doc.

I thought of them as Moose = good to very good, Doc = very good to great to the best

[Judge Jude]

"Baseball Reference has Moose as the pitcher in MLB history with the greatest statistical similarity to Halladay through age 34."

that's considered at least as much a toy as it is a scientific method; don't take it too seriously. but yeah, Mussina had an excellent and underrated career.

also a better postseason pitcher than Pettitte - 3.42 ERA in 140 IP.
Of course, Pettitte (3.83 ERA in 263 IP) did a better job of inspiring his teammates to score a lot of runs, so there's that


to match Pettitte's postseason ERA, Mussina would have to allow 59 ER in 123 IP (4.32 ERA), not exactly a heavy lift

[B-Fly]

"Baseball Reference has Moose as the pitcher in MLB history with the greatest statistical similarity to Halladay through age 34."

that's considered at least as much a toy as it is a scientific method; don't take it too seriously. but yeah, Mussina had an excellent and underrated career.

also a better postseason pitcher than Pettitte - 3.42 ERA in 140 IP.
Of course, Pettitte (3.83 ERA in 263 IP) did a better job of inspiring his teammates to score a lot of runs, so there's that


to match Pettitte's postseason ERA, Mussina would have to allow 59 ER in 123 IP (4.32 ERA), not exactly a heavy lift

Pettitte's historic advantage, which certainly counts for something from a HOF perspective, is being a key component of more team successes than Moose or most other SPs of his era. He was a key rotation guy for five World Series Championship teams. Winning championships is not, IMHO, an unreasonable thing to take into consideration when measuring a pro athlete's career. And yet for some reason that seems to be a more controversial thing to say for MLB players than for NFL or NBA players.

[Erik]

Of course, Doc has two Cy Youngs and a World Series ring on Moose, so he's probably building a stronger HOF case for himself.

Also a perfect game and a postseason no-hitter.

[Erik]

Shelved with "shoulder soreness," which has apparently been bothering him for a while. We won't know til Tue or Wed if it's anything more serious than that.

[Judge Jude]

"He was a key rotation guy for five World Series Championship teams. Winning championships is not, IMHO, an unreasonable thing to take into consideration when measuring a pro athlete's career. And yet for some reason that seems to be a more controversial thing to say for MLB players than for NFL or NBA players."

since Mussina was both a better regular-season AND a better postseason pitcher than Pettitte, how many World Series would the Yankees have won with Mussina instead?

p.s. the championship thing works better to say "players who played roles on championship teams are better remembered." Yankees fans will remember Pettitte more fondly than Orioles fans/Mussina for that reason.

and as noted in the NBA thread, the impact of one player in that sport is exponentially higher than a sport like baseball.

I'm ignoring the Halladay stuff because my team's season hangs in the balance of that soreness.

[virgonomic]

Also a perfect game and a postseason no-hitter.

B-Fly: Did Doc get his WS ring at a pawn shop? He was a Jay in 2008 when the Phils won it. Am I missing something?

[Erik]

I presume he spaced on that. Hamels was the only one of the current PHI aces on the 2008 team.