#3000

[Judge Jude]

TopChuckie, I do understand your point.

I'd take Hank Aaron's - growing up with no chance of playing in the majors, then breaks Babe Ruth's HR record without controversy. He saved every racist letter he got, not out of spite but out of respect for history. That is profound, and the country needs to know that moment in time.

But by your definition, Jeter is right up there, I think.

[onejayhawk]

Hyperbole? Not at all. So many have lost sight of what the game is, you amongst them. It's sad.

When you claim a player is the best you have ever seen, and he isnt even the best on his own team, I would agree you have lost sight of the nature of the game.

As for myself, I thought it was obvious: score runs while preventing the other team from doing so. Arod is noticably and measurably better than Jeter at both. That makes him the better player.

If you want to claim his value is from getting others to perform better, I would like to see evidence. Last I heard intangible runs did not count.

J

[Judge Jude]

feelgood story on the young fan who handed over the baseball:

http://www.northjersey.com/sports/070911_Milestone_trumps_money_for_fan_who_caught_3000-hit_ball.html

[revo]

Derek Jeter is the best ballplayer I've seen in the 35 years I've been a baseball fan. That may be beyond your understanding, but that is your loss.

No wonder why we only have 100 or so posters who come here. Good job outta you.

[Bob Kohm]

Analysis and emotion are different things. Both are great things, but that does not mean they are equally valuable when answering a particular type of question. It's probably worth thinking for a moment about that before commenting more on what's sad and not understood.

No, not at all. The problem, RSF, is that you can't quite grasp the question because it doesn't fit your data set; that being the case you insist that it isn't a relevant question anyway and that the stat du jour is the great quantifier. Where you do wander onto the path is in your statement that analysis and "emotion" (well, almost onto the path...) aren't equally useful in answering a question. When the question isn't "who had the highest WAR in the period 1999-2009" but "who is the greatest ballplayer", stats can only take you so far whereas the experience of the game can take you to the answer. It's really that simple.

[Bob Kohm]

Fair enough. How sad that we devote all this time and energy and "passion" to talk about Jeter's 3000th hit when it is merely a statistic. You can't have it both ways. So, your passionate analysis of Jeter's #3000 is okay, but someone else's passionate analysis of his WAR makes them "sad"?

An incredibly facile post out of an otherwise well thought out poster. Goes to show, I suppose. Read what you've written, compare it to what I've said and then try again, perhaps?

[[echo]]

why so bitch Bhob ?.. just wonderin'.

[Moonlight J]

Derek Jeter is the best ballplayer I've seen in the 35 years I've been a baseball fan. That may be beyond your understanding, but that is your loss.

Better than Griffey Jr? That's the best guy I've seen, injuries be damned.

[Moonlight J]

oh, and my reaction to the whole thing

[hacko]

I heard some talking head say best Yankee player "ever." REALLY - never heard of Ruth, Gehrig????

[TranaGreg]

I have some mixed emotions about Jeter for a variety of reasons, but while he is certainly not the most talented baseball player ever, I contend he very well may have had the best baseball career ever. If you were a 10-year old kid laying in bed dreaming about being a baseball player, what other real player has had a more dream-like career? When you factor in the most important position, SS, on the most storied franchise, on the biggest stage, the talent, personal accomplishments, dramatic/classic moments, championships, popularity, respect, money, and supermodel/actress girlfriends, if you could trade places with any player ever, who's career would you rather have than Jeter's? Aaron, Bonds, Mays, Williams, Pujols, ARod, Cobb, Mantle? I say "No". I contend not even Babe Ruth personified the dream career more than Jeter. DiMaggio seemed to have it all too, and was probably closest, but the fact he was tormented and never seemed happy makes me say no as well.

If my dream baseball career was constrained to choosing one that really happened, I'd take Jeter's. Best career ever. Stat-heads and Yankee haters flame away.

finally I found something in this thread that I can agree with.

[onejayhawk]

I heard some talking head say best Yankee player "ever." REALLY - never heard of Ruth, Gehrig????

I give you best Yankee SS, since ARod never played the position regularly in NY.

In a way this reminds me of the push to get Scooter into the HoF 20 odd years ago. Joe Gordon was the better player, but Rizutto had "fire".

J

[Erik]

Those folks over at Fangraphs are apparently not very credible.

WAR leaders, career, 1995-2011

A-Rod
Bonds
Chipper
Pujols
Rolen
Jeter

Hmm. Is Scott Rolen a Hall of Famer?

[popeye]

Wow. How sad that there are people like you who forget that statistics are a way to analyze the game of baseball, not to define it. You've taken a key and not used it to turn on the engine but, somehow in your mind, to replace it. Dispassionate analysis is the antithesis of what made the game the channel by which disparate generations found common ground. Baseball is a game of passion; statistics are its byproduct.

Derek Jeter is the best ballplayer I've seen in the 35 years I've been a baseball fan. That may be beyond your understanding, but that is your loss.

Why not try to make your points without putting others down? More times than not, that is done when the argument might not or won't stand on it's own merits.

Others can disagree with you and (can even be right, and) still
understand/comprehend/get it/be highly informed.

[RSF]

No, not at all. The problem, RSF, is that you can't quite grasp the question because it doesn't fit your data set; that being the case you insist that it isn't a relevant question anyway and that the stat du jour is the great quantifier. Where you do wander onto the path is in your statement that analysis and "emotion" (well, almost onto the path...) aren't equally useful in answering a question. When the question isn't "who had the highest WAR in the period 1999-2009" but "who is the greatest ballplayer", stats can only take you so far whereas the experience of the game can take you to the answer. It's really that simple.

Again, you need to be more careful in reading before you write. I began exactly the same way you did, simply asking who was the best baseball player. I did not bring up WAR, that was a different poster--one trying to support your position. Please direct your vitriol at the person who did so, rather than me.

My 'experience' of the game is that Jeter is nowhere close to the top player of our era. That is consistent with any of the many different statistical analyses that reach the same conclusion. Sometimes, data and observation are mutually reinforcing. You reach a different conclusion, and what I think many have been asking you is how you get there beyond simply the conclusion itself.