#3000

[The Dane]

Its funny because I think its the opposite. There are just some yankee haters that are so jealous of the Yankee success or are bitter of the Yankee ability to pay their way to championships that they can't give a guy like Jeter the credit he deserves and then they want a treat when they throw us a bone by saying that they think Mariano is the greatest closer of all time (not referring to anyone specific in this thread).

There, of course, is some of this, but not as much as Yankee fans would like to believe. I don't hate the Yankees at all, I just think that occasionally they -and their fans- are way too fond of themselves and make a big deal out of so much that when something great happens -like today- it rings hollow. Surely, the media plays into this, and most baseball broadcasters and personalities are East-Coasters which just drives the whole thing into absurdity.

[Judge Jude]

I don't think the fan had any idea how valuable the ball could be. If he knew he might get 200K, it would be a difficult ethical dilemma - he doesn't have any money, basically, and he's going to give up the only shot he ever has at an out-of-the-blue nest egg to hand it over to a megamillionaire?

But it played out nicely - the kid knew he was giving up SOME money, but wanted to do the right thing and didn't know how much. He got 4 tickets for the rest of the home games, plus playoffs, which he can sell for some cash, and he got to meet some heroes and such. Would be nice if some millionaire Yankees fan considered him for a sales job based on his selfless gesture.

I thought it was awesome that Jeter not only got a HR on his 3,000th hit - after more than a year not hitting it out of that park - but that he went 5-for-5 as well. But I make a joke mid-game about how Biggio got FIVE hits when he got to 3,000, and then when Jeter does, a couple of posters seem angry at me, instead of being as amused as I was that he pulled a 5-hit game out of nowhere. That was cool, so even if one feels the runup was hyped, it seems impossible to overdo today's performance. He did everything but perform the Heimlich maneuver on a fan in the box seats choking on a hot dog.

Jeter looked reborn today - he has been a poor performer all year, with a 76 OPS+ and poor fielding range. And yes the team didn't get hot until he left the lineup. But I think the DL stint was good for him, as he was stuck in a rut of bad habits. Some time away may have helped. We'll see.

As I said earlier in this thread, I have nothing against Jeter, and most of the overhype has nothing to do with him (he did sign on to the $699.99 baseball sales and such, but hey, that's free enterprise. A fool and his money, and all that). A top-10 all-time SS with a unique niche - more very good offensive seasons than almost any other SS in history. Only in 1999 was he nearly MVP level, but the consistency and durability for his prime were remarkable. And a dream day today to boot.

[BuckyBuckner]

I thought it was awesome that Jeter not only got a HR on his 3,000th hit - after more than a year not hitting it out of that park - but that he went 5-for-5 as well. But I make a joke mid-game about how Biggio got FIVE hits when he got to 3,000, and then when Jeter does, a couple of posters seem angry at me, instead of being as amused as I was that he pulled a 5-hit game out of nowhere.

You strike me as the person who, when you child brings home a test score of 89% you'll ask when you couldn't get a 92%. What I mean, when Jeter gets his 3,000 hit you felt the need to bring up someone else who did it in what at the time was grander fashion and say "take that Jeter". What was the point of that? For some reason you felt the need to belittle Jeter's accomplishment, but no, you clearly have nothing against Jeter.

[Judge Jude]

I was not belittling his accomplishment.

I think, and thought, it was unbelievable that Jeter would hit it out of the park at home for the first time in over a year for his 3,000th. Then he was 3-for-3.

I found it even more unbelievable that a struggling Biggio got FIVE hits the day he reached 3,000.
Anyone with a sense of perspective or a sense of humor, I assumed, would realize that to say "In your face, Jeter" is a joke. He had just reached the milestone in shockingly dramatic fashion. Nothing could possibly take away from that, not even if Biggio or anyone else had TEN hits in that game. Jeter's is the most dramatic. Duh.

The way Jeter got his 3,000th hit cannot be belittled. For anyone to think it could be is to suggest someone who would take an article in The Onion seriously.

It amazes me that anyone could think that my Biggio comment could be construed as a knock on Jeter. I think it's obvious to most as a joke - one that to me was made even funnier when Jeter miraculously got to 5 hits himself today.

I almost feel like I enjoyed Jeter's day more than some Yankees fans did. What's not to like?

And Bucky, did I run over your dog or something?

[primetime]

I don't think the fan had any idea how valuable the ball could be. If he knew he might get 200K, it would be a difficult ethical dilemma - he doesn't have any money, basically, and he's going to give up the only shot he ever has at an out-of-the-blue nest egg to hand it over to a megamillionaire?

Possible, but he comes off as a big Yankee fan and all the local papers/sports radio have discussed the value of the ball if some fan got his hands on it. Plus most fans are aware that milestone balls fetch alot of money. Kid graduate college so I assume he is fairly intelligent, but decided to do what he thought was right. Hopefully, he manages to parlay this niceness into some money.

For the record, there is zero chance I would do the same thing.

[The Dane]

For the record, there is zero chance I would do the same thing.

Same here, probably. I might do it for the kind of package he got in return, tickets and other signed stuff and meeting players. I'd really like to someday go into the Hall of Fame and see an artifact and know that, for a brief moment in time, it was MINE. If I sold it to a collector, that would be unlikely.

[Judge Jude]

Yeah, I hope good things come out of this for the kid.

The shrewdest move might have been to announce that he plans to give the ball to Jeter personally, in the near future. Then behind the scenes, get a cash payout from the Yankees, etc.

But I still like the way he came across in the mid-game interview. He literally was willing to get NOTHING for this ball. The Yankees were smart enough to give him unsold seat inventory with a huge list price for the rest of the season, knowing he can sell a lot of it and yet entertain friends for other games. Costs the Yankees nothing, other than what they would have sold it for below cost on the secondary ticket market. And it's been a challenge to sell that inventory anyway.

Part of the perfect Jeter story today, really.

[joncarlos]

I don't think there's much way to analytically support Jeter being anywhere near the top of a credible list of baseball players in the last 20 years.

However, a fan of a team certainly can prioritize their emotion for the player above all that, too.

Those folks over at Fangraphs are apparently not very credible.

WAR leaders, career, 1995-2011

A-Rod
Bonds
Chipper
Pujols
Rolen
Jeter

[joncarlos]

Possible, but he comes off as a big Yankee fan and all the local papers/sports radio have discussed the value of the ball if some fan got his hands on it. Plus most fans are aware that milestone balls fetch alot of money. Kid graduate college so I assume he is fairly intelligent, but decided to do what he thought was right. Hopefully, he manages to parlay this niceness into some money.

For the record, there is zero chance I would do the same thing.

I have to hope that the Yankees or Jeter will take care of him. Surely he can get some cash for the seats he got. But I'm with primetime and Dane, there is no chance I would just give it up like that. I'd feel bad, but if you're holding your kid's tuition in your hands, you can't just give it away.

[Hornsby]

I have to hope that the Yankees or Jeter will take care of him. Surely he can get some cash for the seats he got. But I'm with primetime and Dane, there is no chance I would just give it up like that. I'd feel bad, but if you're holding your kid's tuition in your hands, you can't just give it away.

I wouldn't feel the least bit bad about getting paid for the ball...after all it's your ball at the point that you catch and control it. And the people that would like to own the ball to display it, or have it in their trophy case (the Yankees and Jeter respectively), are multi-millionaires many times over. It becomes a business transaction at that point. If the club or jeter don't want to pay the going rate, I'd put the ball on the open market with a clear conscience.

[RSF]

Those folks over at Fangraphs are apparently not very credible.

WAR leaders, career, 1995-2011

A-Rod
Bonds
Chipper
Pujols
Rolen
Jeter

I always wonder on posts like the above whether someone just wrote too quickly...because it's really puzzling if otherwise.

Jeter is 17th among all players in WAR if you follow the time period indicated in the original post (which was 20 years, not a completely biased comparison of Jeter's active years to other players who weren't active all of those years) and which includes pitchers (who are, obviously, also players).

If we were to use something a bit more sophisticated than WAR for relievers, I'd guess it might move Rivera-Hoffman ahead as well in terms of WPA/leverage. That still overstates Jeter's value a bit, because there's a few better players in that timeframe who had more years outside of the range than he does. But, the point is clear even without adjusting for that issue: He's not sixth, or anything close to sixth.

Now, to be clear, he's a Hall of Famer, a terrific player, and by all accounts an outstanding representative of the game. But he's not the best player of any era, and he's not even in the top group for this current one.

[Bob Kohm]

I always wonder on posts like the above whether someone just wrote too quickly...because it's really puzzling if otherwise.

Jeter is 17th among all players in WAR if you follow the time period indicated in the original post (which was 20 years, not a completely biased comparison of Jeter's years to others where he has 100% of the years active and others do not, as you did). Not sixth, or anything close to sixth. That overstates his value a bit still, because there's a few better players in that timeframe who had more years outside of the range than he does. But, the point is clear even without adjusting for that issue.

Now, to be clear, he's a Hall of Famer, a terrific player, and by all accounts an outstanding representative of the game. But he's not the best player of any era, and he's not even in the top group for this current one.

Wow. How sad that there are people like you who forget that statistics are a way to analyze the game of baseball, not to define it. You've taken a key and not used it to turn on the engine but, somehow in your mind, to replace it. Dispassionate analysis is the antithesis of what made the game the channel by which disparate generations found common ground. Baseball is a game of passion; statistics are its byproduct.

Derek Jeter is the best ballplayer I've seen in the 35 years I've been a baseball fan. That may be beyond your understanding, but that is your loss.

[RSF]

Analysis and emotion are different things. Both are great things, but that does not mean they are equally valuable when answering a particular type of question. It's probably worth thinking for a moment about that before commenting more on what's sad and not understood.

[The Dane]

Wow. How sad that there are people like you who forget that statistics are a way to analyze the game of baseball, not to define it. You've taken a key and not used it to turn on the engine but, somehow in your mind, to replace it. Dispassionate analysis is the antithesis of what made the game the channel by which disparate generations found common ground. Baseball is a game of passion; statistics are its byproduct.

Fair enough. How sad that we devote all this time and energy and "passion" to talk about Jeter's 3000th hit when it is merely a statistic. You can't have it both ways. So, your passionate analysis of Jeter's #3000 is okay, but someone else's passionate analysis of his WAR makes them "sad"?

[TopChuckie]

I have some mixed emotions about Jeter for a variety of reasons, but while he is certainly not the most talented baseball player ever, I contend he very well may have had the best baseball career ever. If you were a 10-year old kid laying in bed dreaming about being a baseball player, what other real player has had a more dream-like career? When you factor in the most important position, SS, on the most storied franchise, on the biggest stage, the talent, personal accomplishments, dramatic/classic moments, championships, popularity, respect, money, and supermodel/actress girlfriends, if you could trade places with any player ever, who's career would you rather have than Jeter's? Aaron, Bonds, Mays, Williams, Pujols, ARod, Cobb, Mantle? I say "No". I contend not even Babe Ruth personified the dream career more than Jeter. DiMaggio seemed to have it all too, and was probably closest, but the fact he was tormented and never seemed happy makes me say no as well.

If my dream baseball career was constrained to choosing one that really happened, I'd take Jeter's. Best career ever. Stat-heads and Yankee haters flame away.

PS. JJ, I actually did think you were joking with the "in your face" line, as was I in my reply, but then I saw the rest of your posts in this thread.