2k24: St. Louis Cardinals

[mjl]

(1 hr ago) Flaherty is expected to open the 2018 season in the Cardinals' starting rotation, Joe Trezza of MLB.com reports.
It was reported Sunday morning that Adam Wainwright suffered a strained left hamstring, so he'll be required to open the season on the 10-day disabled list. Flaherty -- who was removed from major-league camp last Sunday -- is expected to fill the void in the rotation for as long as Wainwright is sidelined. The 22-year-old is one of the top prospects in the Cardinals' system but struggled in his 2017 debut, posting a 6.33 ERA and 20:10 K:BB over 21.1 innings of work. As things line up, he could be tasked with facing the Brewers twice and Reds once in his early-season starts.

[tinitoys]

Sweet, I got him last night in my nl only auction

[Pauly]

I got this guy everywhere...mixed and NL. I would think if he pitches well that Wainwright might be in for an "extended rehab" or something worse.

[Pauly]

Flaherty Ks 4 of the first 5 batters

[onejayhawk]

Flaherty Ks 4 of the first 5 batters

Nine in 5 IP, and they still sent him down to activate Wainwright. Is this just an early season, lots of off days, only need a four man rotation thing? Or, is it a service time thing?

J

[Pauly]

Nine in 5 IP, and they still sent him down to activate Wainwright. Is this just an early season, lots of off days, only need a four man rotation thing? Or, is it a service time thing?

J

It's a STUPID IDIOTIC thing.

[pitbull]

It is a combination of paying a player 19.5 million, giving him a chance to ride off into the sunset by honoring a pitcher who has been pretty damn good throughout his career and actually has played his entire career for one team. I don't think the Cardinals are stupid or delusional that Waino will return to his previous form by keeping Flahery in the minors. They know what type of pitcher they have in Flaherty and he will be back but fantasy aside I hope as a baseball fan Waino can give it one more ride.

[The Dane]

It is a combination of paying a player 19.5 million, giving him a chance to ride off into the sunset by honoring a pitcher who has been pretty damn good throughout his career and actually has played his entire career for one team. I don't think the Cardinals are stupid or delusional that Waino will return to his previous form by keeping Flahery in the minors. They know what type of pitcher they have in Flaherty and he will be back but fantasy aside I hope as a baseball fan Waino can give it one more ride.

Exactly. The team is doing what it HAS to do. Let us not forget that these are human beings, not just commodities for us to wager on. Any team that would callously cast away a player like Wainwright without giving him his due, cannot expect any other player to play his heart out for them. Would YOU want to play for an organization that pissed on Adam Wainwright after all of the great moments he's given them?

Don't worry. Flaherty will get his chance to be a solid #3 on a good team. Let's let the franchise hero have his Summer in the sun.

[cavebird]

It is a combination of paying a player 19.5 million, giving him a chance to ride off into the sunset by honoring a pitcher who has been pretty damn good throughout his career and actually has played his entire career for one team. I don't think the Cardinals are stupid or delusional that Waino will return to his previous form by keeping Flahery in the minors. They know what type of pitcher they have in Flaherty and he will be back but fantasy aside I hope as a baseball fan Waino can give it one more ride.

He actually was a Braves farm hand (and a college roommate of a former co-worker of mine's brother) who was traded for J.D. Drew in 2002 or 2003, lol.

[The Dane]

He actually was a Braves farm hand (and a college roommate of a former co-worker of mine's brother) who was traded for J.D. Drew in 2002 or 2003, lol.

True, but he only wore one MLB uniform.

[pitbull]

He actually was a Braves farm hand (and a college roommate of a former co-worker of mine's brother) who was traded for J.D. Drew in 2002 or 2003, lol.

Okay you get a technical point for that.

[chancellor]

Exactly. The team is doing what it HAS to do. Let us not forget that these are human beings, not just commodities for us to wager on. Any team that would callously cast away a player like Wainwright without giving him his due, cannot expect any other player to play his heart out for them. Would YOU want to play for an organization that pissed on Adam Wainwright after all of the great moments he's given them?

Hmmm...I have to disagree with you that the Cards have to do this, and that cutting Waino at this point would be "pissing on" him. I do agree with you that the players are human beings and not just commodities for us to wager on.

The Cardinals are obligated to their fans to put the best team on the field they can, while also managing for the long-term good of the franchise. I would have agreed with your assessment had Waino just been coming off major surgery like he was in 2016, and the Cardinals dumped him. But they've been more than patient with him - he's now had two full years of pretty poor performance - 4.62/1.40 with an ERA+ of 88 in 2016, and 5.11/1.50 with an ERA+ of 84 last year. Most every player - and a veteran like Waino for sure - knows that a starting pitching job for a MLB team is earned by merit and performance, and if you can't perform at an elite level, you will be replaced. My point of view is that the players know when a guy can't cut it anymore, and will respect management more for making the hard move than standing pat with someone who gets sent out solely because they have a big contract. Waino's had two full years to show the Cards he still belongs in their starting rotation, and his recent outings sure appear that he's not improving over the past two years.

At this point, if the Cards replace Waino - whether it's with Flaherty or someone else - I doubt the players will remotely consider it "pissing on" Waino, unless the Cards do it in some highly unprofessional manner.

[The Dane]

Hmmm...I have to disagree with you that the Cards have to do this, and that cutting Waino at this point would be "pissing on" him. I do agree with you that the players are human beings and not just commodities for us to wager on.

The Cardinals are obligated to their fans to put the best team on the field they can, while also managing for the long-term good of the franchise. I would have agreed with your assessment had Waino just been coming off major surgery like he was in 2016, and the Cardinals dumped him. But they've been more than patient with him - he's now had two full years of pretty poor performance - 4.62/1.40 with an ERA+ of 88 in 2016, and 5.11/1.50 with an ERA+ of 84 last year. Most every player - and a veteran like Waino for sure - knows that a starting pitching job for a MLB team is earned by merit and performance, and if you can't perform at an elite level, you will be replaced. My point of view is that the players know when a guy can't cut it anymore, and will respect management more for making the hard move than standing pat with someone who gets sent out solely because they have a big contract. Waino's had two full years to show the Cards he still belongs in their starting rotation, and his recent outings sure appear that he's not improving over the past two years.

At this point, if the Cards replace Waino - whether it's with Flaherty or someone else - I doubt the players will remotely consider it "pissing on" Waino, unless the Cards do it in some highly unprofessional manner.

Fair enough.

You offer a very rational and reasoned explanation of why the Cardinals should jettison Wainwright and give Flaherty a chance. You think they've been patient enough. You think Wainwright should just know that his time is up, and that he can't help the team anymore. You described your point of view of how teammates feel about Wainwright's performance. You have described what you think the players would think about Wainwright's dismissal.

You may very well be right about these things. However, it's pretty clear that Wainwright and the Cardinals disagree with you. That's just not how the Cardinals do business. They do not promote aggressively, with the exception of a relief pitcher or two. They often have one of the older rosters in baseball, although at this point they're in the younger third of teams. (They also tend to have more American players than most teams, although that's not relevant to this conversation, just thrown in to make my point that teams have personalities and they tend to do things the way they do things, and for the Cardinals, it works pretty well.) This is not really a team that goes out on a limb for unproven guys all that often. When they do, it's often to great effect, but they don't do it often. Look at how long it took them to give Luke Weaver a shot and I think he has a higher upside than Flaherty.

You disagree with the way the team does its thing. I do it all the time, and a part of me agrees with every assessment you made. However, we're in the business of prognostication, for the most part, around here. And if I'm guessing what a team is going to do, I rely a great deal on what they've done in the recent past. I'm not always correct, of course. I'm guessing, with moderate confidence, that the Cardinals will give Wainwright at least one more chance to prove himself. If he fails two or three more starts, he'll get a mysterious injury and they'll bring in Flaherty. Even as a Flaherty owner, I had zero expectation that -even if he threw a no-hitter- Flaherty would stay up at the expense of Wainwright. That would go against what the Cardinals almost always do.

If a team does what it's always done, how can be shocked?

[cavebird]

Okay you get a technical point for that.

I'll take it.

[mjl]

In his first start in Memphis, Jack Flaherty went 7 innings, struck out 11, allowed 5 hits, 1 earned run, and didn't walk anyone. 72 of 103 pitches for strikes