World Cup 2014

[Pogues]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07mBfR8erMY&feature=kp

It's funny, because it's true.

[hacko]

Has any team every look so bad after getting to the semi finals ever in the history of the World Cup . Then you add in the fact they are the host team. I could see some rioting going on tonight.

[johnnya24]

Has any team every look so bad after getting to the semi finals ever in the history of the World Cup . Then you add in the fact they are the host team. I could see some rioting going on tonight.

Well they have a team of quality players, but they are lacking in some critical areas. They lack a real creative force in central midfield with too many solid-type players. They also lack a quality striker ... in fact they were really poor up front apart from Neymar. They have some really good young attacking midfield talent ... but no-one who can dictate the play from further back.

You can put the complete capitulation against Germany down to losing their best player (Thiago Silva) though suspension ... and massive over-expectation (or overconfidence) ... when the balloon burst they fell to pieces ... some would say it burst in the week prior to the Semi's. He's probably the best central defender in the world. He was able to cover for all David Luis's defensive weakness. But when David Luis had to be the defensive leader, it showed. Who knows how the SF might have gone if Silva hadn't got suspended ... but on the other hand, bench depth is required to win the World Cup, and BRazil didn't have that in crucial areas ... areas that were cruelly and perhaps disproportionately exposed by Germany.

Chelsea sold David Luis to PSG for £50 million before the World Cup (a world record for a defender) ... I'll bet they are laughing all the way tot he bank right now Chelsea basically swapped David Luis for Cesc Fabregas and Diego Costa LOL

[johnnya24]

I just figured this out.

You see more referees equating to more penalties being called, as more is seen.

I, and I suspect others, see more referees as more eyes to catch the cheaters who flop at the slightest contact.

Is there any penalty for obvious flopping? Yellow card, perhaps?

Yeah, the rules state that simulation should receive a yellow card. That is also a problem because referees have clearly been instructed to avoid red cards at all cost. But then you have the game last night when Oscar was booked for diving, and he was completely taken out by the Dutch player. Should have been a penalty, and ends up with a player wrongly booked for simulation. There were already 2 referees within close proximity of the incident, both with different angles, and they still got it horribly wrong.

It's so difficult to tell when a player is diving these days. You don't see that many Klinsman style swan dives anymore. The players are much more clever. Also I don't think many of the US "flopper" critics realize how difficult it is to stay balanced when running at full tilt, maintaining ball control and field awareness when you've been clipped ... even slightly clipped. It's not like NFL where you just have to run with the ball, and it doesn't matter if you get taken down because it's only about getting a few extra yards.

The answer is not more referees. The answer is harsh retrospective punishment and big fines. Ban players who dive, and make the punishment accumulative: a clear dive is a 1 game ban, any future diving will lead to 2 game ban ... then a 3 game ban etc etc. That way players who dive will become liabilities.

The players notorious for diving in tonight's final are:

Lavezzi (Argenina)
Klose (Germany) ... if he plays

Muller (Germany) has also been known to take the odd liberty, but you wouldn't say it's characteristic of his game.

Not sure about Di Maria (Argenina). He's a bit like Robben in that he moves and changes direction so fast that he gets clipped a lot. These players are a defender's nightmare.

Ozil (Germany) plays the game in slow motion, but he gets clipped a lot also. It looks like he dives sometimes because everything seems innocuous, but the replays always show he's been taken out. Referees don't like to give penalties that look innocuous ... or in this World Cup, they use innocuous looking fouls as an excuse NOT to give penalties. A foul is a foul, innocuous or not.

[johnnya24]

An early goal will mean a great final IMO. Without an early goal it could turn into a Germany - France style tactical affair.

EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL! EARLY GOAL!

[Judge Jude]

"Also I don't think many of the US "flopper" critics realize how difficult it is to stay balanced when running at full tilt, maintaining ball control and field awareness when you've been clipped ... even slightly clipped."

You're misunderstanding the typical American objection. When a guy goes down, he doesn't have to act like a sniper just got him in the back of both legs in rapid-fire fashion, wildly clutch various body parts, and continue to do so until - after the 'booking' - getting up immediately and act as if nothing ever happened. That's as laughable as is an NFL game where referees spend 4-5 minutes watching 20 replays to see if a guy's foot was out of bounds in the 1st of a meaningless December game between 2 bad teams. There is a sane medium.

Too many players act like children, trying to trick "mom and dad" into punishing their sibling for no reason. It is what it is - accepted in most of the world, and laughed at in much of the U.S. FIFA has plenty of money - they don't need to change. And the U.S. has plenty of other sports.

And I say this as someone who watches more World Cup than a lot of us heathens. This has been a particularly good tournament, in general.

And hard to sympathize with the swan divers of Brazil getting away with one performance after another, only to get burned on a time they finally didn't deserve it. Let's just say they were due...

[hacko]

Yeah, the rules state that simulation should receive a yellow card. That is also a problem because referees have clearly been instructed to avoid red cards at all cost. But then you have the game last night when Oscar was booked for diving, and he was completely taken out by the Dutch player. Should have been a penalty, and ends up with a player wrongly booked for simulation. There were already 2 referees within close proximity of the incident, both with different angles, and they still got it horribly wrong.

It's so difficult to tell when a player is diving these days. You don't see that many Klinsman style swan dives anymore. The players are much more clever. Also I don't think many of the US "flopper" critics realize how difficult it is to stay balanced when running at full tilt, maintaining ball control and field awareness when you've been clipped ... even slightly clipped. It's not like NFL where you just have to run with the ball, and it doesn't matter if you get taken down because it's only about getting a few extra yards.

The answer is not more referees. The answer is harsh retrospective punishment and big fines. Ban players who dive, and make the punishment accumulative: a clear dive is a 1 game ban, any future diving will lead to 2 game ban ... then a 3 game ban etc etc. That way players who dive will become liabilities.

The players notorious for diving in tonight's final are:

Lavezzi (Argenina)
Klose (Germany) ... if he plays

Muller (Germany) has also been known to take the odd liberty, but you wouldn't say it's characteristic of his game.

Not sure about Di Maria (Argenina). He's a bit like Robben in that he moves and changes direction so fast that he gets clipped a lot. These players are a defender's nightmare.

Ozil (Germany) plays the game in slow motion, but he gets clipped a lot also. It looks like he dives sometimes because everything seems innocuous, but the replays always show he's been taken out. Referees don't like to give penalties that look innocuous ... or in this World Cup, they use innocuous looking fouls as an excuse NOT to give penalties. A foul is a foul, innocuous or not.

Maybe they should just use technology to improve the game. Let game as is . Then after game hand out fines,cards/ suspension just for the most horrible of offenses.( dives, miss red cards ....) by looking at game on replay. You would think that would stop some of the diving if then knew big brother was watching And Would truly do something about it.

Kind of what they did in the biting incident.

[johnnya24]

"Also I don't think many of the US "flopper" critics realize how difficult it is to stay balanced when running at full tilt, maintaining ball control and field awareness when you've been clipped ... even slightly clipped."

You're misunderstanding the typical American objection. When a guy goes down, he doesn't have to act like a sniper just got him in the back of both legs in rapid-fire fashion, wildly clutch various body parts, and continue to do so until - after the 'booking' - getting up immediately and act as if nothing ever happened. That's as laughable as is an NFL game where referees spend 4-5 minutes watching 20 replays to see if a guy's foot was out of bounds in the 1st of a meaningless December game between 2 bad teams. There is a sane medium.

Too many players act like children, trying to trick "mom and dad" into punishing their sibling for no reason. It is what it is - accepted in most of the world, and laughed at in much of the U.S. FIFA has plenty of money - they don't need to change. And the U.S. has plenty of other sports.

And I say this as someone who watches more World Cup than a lot of us heathens. This has been a particularly good tournament, in general.

And hard to sympathize with the swan divers of Brazil getting away with one performance after another, only to get burned on a time they finally didn't deserve it. Let's just say they were due...

Problem is you guys are reducing a whole sport to a few minor incidents in games. To be honest with you, I take the same attitude that the MLS and US soccer guys take ... if you are going to do that ... then don't watch it. It's getting seriously boring. We've just had a terrfically entertaining World Cup, probably the best ever, and still you guys moaning about diving. There's a popular soccer chant: "No-one likes us and we don't care" ... seems apt. Diving is a problem that is being eradicated from the game, and an issue for everyone inside the sport, but it's just an issue, like anything else. I doubt it will never be completely eradicated because there will always be players in any competitive sport who will do anything to win. Look at how players continue to take PED's in Baseball, Cycling and Athletics despite all that has happened.

As for the "gun shot" reactions, it's often legit ... ever been kicked in the shins or ankle or knee while running at full tilt? Kinda hurts when you aren't wearing body armour. Ever been gouged down the calf or achilles with studs ... also kinda hurts. Forearm across the nose, elbows in the chest and solar plexus, smack on the face when you aren't expecting it. Studs up tackle on the side of your leg when you are running in a different direction or when you foot is planted.

You guys have the impression that soccer is some kind of girly sport. If bringing you guys into the sport means more of this mentality, then better it doesn't happen. I hope this macho mentality isn't finding it's way into the youth level of the game, because it will hurt the games development, just the same as the UK. I played a bit of organised youth and school soccer in the UK ... it was all elbows, aggression, physicality, heavy tackling. When the referees back was turned, you'd get an elbow in the chest or across the face or get gouged down the achilles. It was ridiculous. That's what the coaches wanted. Then these players find their way into professional teams and get embarrassed because that kind of play doesn't wash at the higher levels. When we were young, we played football for fun. It wasn't fun playing of for the school team.

There was one guy called Mervyn (can't remember his full name). Guy was built like a brick shit house, but couldn't play football, didn't ever really want to play football ... but the football coaches got him to play central midfield and just kick lumps out of the opposition. That pretty summed up the difference between those of us who played for enjoyment and fun, and the competitive side of the game. In the UK, the skill players just got kicked out of the sport. That's why England will never win the World Cup.

The way some folk go on (:cough: POGUES :cough: ), making diving a deal breaker for the whole sport is kinda ridiculous. If we did that, we wouldn't watch any sport. As long as there is high level sport, there will always be a few cheaters. You don't reduce the whole sport to that. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

[johnnya24]

Maybe they should just use technology to improve the game. Let game as is . Then after game hand out fines,cards/ suspension just for the most horrible of offenses.( dives, miss red cards ....) by looking at game on replay. You would think that would stop some of the diving if then knew big brother was watching And Would truly do something about it.

Kind of what they did in the biting incident.

Yeah, this already happens for serious incidents. Like elbows, punches and dangerous tackles that were not picked up on the field of play. If a player is caught on replay doing something that the referee missed, then they can be punished retrospectively. Up to 5 game bans for serious incidents. It happens a lot.

But it should be expanded for all incidents of diving IMO. I agree with that. I'd don't know anyone who doesn't ... well not fans anyway.

.... and it shouldn't require that the referee didn't see the incident. If a referee sees an incident, it can't be reviewed retrospectively. Referees can't be wrong FFS. That is the most stupid rule.

I guess the other thing that needs to be reviewed in this "amateur" sports attitude ... that there should be a gentleman's agreement that the referees decision is final. If a sport as traditional as cricket can get rid of this viewpoint, then football sure as hell can get rid of it.

[johnnya24]

Maybe they should just use technology to improve the game. Let game as is . Then after game hand out fines,cards/ suspension just for the most horrible of offenses.( dives, miss red cards ....) by looking at game on replay. You would think that would stop some of the diving if then knew big brother was watching And Would truly do something about it.

Kind of what they did in the biting incident.

I guess the other thing that needs to be considered is the different attitudes to "diving" in different parts of the world. Some countries don't really care about it. In Northern Europe and the USA clearly, it's much more of an issue than in Spain or South America. Divers are booed in games in the UK. Generally that doesn't happen in Spain. Players who come to play in England have to change their mentality very quickly, or they have a bad time.

But then you get players like Luis Suarez ... who, no matter how often he is caught and booed for diving and cheating, will never stop doing "whatever it takes". There will always be players and characters like that is every sport.

Retrospective banning will help. I would take it a step forward and use instant technology for all red cards and penalties.

[Judge Jude]

"As for the "gun shot" reactions, it's often legit ... ever been kicked in the shins or ankle or knee while running at full tilt? Kinda hurts when you aren't wearing body armour. Ever been gouged down the calf or achilles with studs ... also kinda hurts."

wow, you STILL don't get it.

the issue is NOT a player going down hard and perhaps being hurt - the issue is ridiculous exaggeration, then when a card is issued (or he hasn't fooled the ref), the player suddenly is 100 pct. that's not real. sure, you can get fall hard and be in pain, and then get up and work your way thru it. but that's not what we're talking about.

there's plenty of physicality in soccer, obviously (and yes, I played it a ton as a kid).

but as I said, FIFA doesn't have to do anything if they don't want to, they have plenty of fans already. and they'll have to live with American fans laughing at how games can get decided on who gets away with the most histrionics rather than who was the better side. as much as I loathe some of the US replay overkill, they generally get that part right - and that's a good thing.

A British colleague of mine said there is some sentiment to curbing some of the most ridiculous fakery. makes sense, while they don't NEED the full US market, it sure wouldn't hurt either.

[johnnya24]

The point is it's a minor issue that doesn't happen that often. But because that is all you guys are looking for that's all you are seeing.

This was a much bigger issue in the past than now. Players are not able to get away with it because of the insane amount if TV coverage. Heck, Robben even had to come out and publicly apologize for diving in an earlier game. That would never have happened 15 years ago.

The issue is becoming less and less and will mostly be eradicated when the authorities finally wake up to technology. And yet, despite the fact that it's being slowly exorcised, all if a sudden it's all Americans can talk about.

[Judge Jude]

well, it's so absurd that the fact that it happens at all stands out like a sore thumb. they could fix the entire problem in 30 days if they wanted to - just review the flops, and fine and suspend in increasing amounts until it's counterproductive. "slowly exorcised" is FIFA's own fault - compared to a lot of sporting nonsense, this one is easy.

[johnnya24]

well, it's so absurd that the fact that it happens at all stands out like a sore thumb. they could fix the entire problem in 30 days if they wanted to - just review the flops, and fine and suspend in increasing amounts until it's counterproductive. "slowly exorcised" is FIFA's own fault - compared to a lot of sporting nonsense, this one is easy.

FIFA only have limited authority. UEFA control European competition, and the national associations control the individual countries. Plus these are all run by committees ... and of course, we all know how efficient and forward thinking bureaucratic committees are

It will be small steps, and technology will creep in slowly. You are never going to get any kind of revolutionary use of technology overnight, especially not for a minor issue like diving ... just to appease some Nascar fan? No chance

The rules about punishing diving were brought in maybe 20 years ago ... and they have been contradicted a little bit by referees not wanting to flash early yellow cards. But the reality is that technology has been the biggest deterrent. Every game is televised these days, every talking point replayed from a 100 different angles in slow motion HD. Divers are shamed and labelled in ways that have never been experienced before. You will still get players coming from smaller leagues, that don't have the same OTT exposure trying to con the referee ... but they generally don't do it for long when they hit the big leagues. Except of course sociopaths like Luis Suarez. If a player (in any sport or field) has no sense of shame or embarrassment, they will do or try anything to succeed.

Retrospective punishment doesn't require any kind of huge technological leap, so hopefully that will creep in sooner rather than later.

[Judge Jude]

alright, good answer and enjoy the final!