Verizon Customer?

[JudeBaldo]

ECHELON and PRISM are two very different things. There is a huge difference to snooping the airwaves and plucking out data and chatter that way (what I assumed was going on even though it is in a grey area legally speaking) and having court orders to indiscriminately get any and everyone's private data (which is pure wrong and indefensible).

PRISM is obviously the greater danger to individual freedom, and the greater threat. However, the court order for Verizon to hand over all details on everyone is the red flag, which is probably why it was released first. It shows exactly the intent behind these programs... to illegally gather as much data and info on every citizen as possible. That is the most disgusting thing.

If you add the intent of the Verizon order to the scope and reach of the PRISM order, you have the true scope of NSA's plan.

This can only be for population control and to further the evolution of the police states that the USA and other Western "democracies" are fast becoming. This will not be useful for catching terrorists, because serious organised terrorists will not be using unsecured electronic transmissions to plan their acts. Only naive disorganised minor threats could every be caught this way ... and they are not a threat at all.

The whole terrorism charade is nothing more than a bogie man story to justify getting us to give up our rights.

Once they're gone, you can't get them back.
Once they're gone, you can't get them back.
Once they're gone, you can't get them back.
Once they're gone, you can't get them back.
Once they're gone, you can't get them back.

1. ECHELON and PRISM are not all that different. They are, fundamentally, signals analysis. An appropriate analogy is to think of ECHELON as a net, whilst PRISM is a fishing pole.

2. Technically it isn't illegal if it was court approved.

3. Again that's not necessarily true. One need only look to the Brothers Tsarnaev who used a wide array of telecommunications platforms. The vast majority of online sharing lies in "dark social." Remember that the Brothers Tsarnaev were identified using facial recognition technology and were eventually tracked down because of a cell signal emanating from the iPhone of the man they had carjacked.

[johnnya24]

1. ECHELON and PRISM are not all that different. They are, fundamentally, signals analysis. An appropriate analogy is to think of ECHELON as a net, whilst PRISM is a fishing pole.

The difference is huge JB. ECHELON as far as I know did not have direct open access to the servers of all the major Internet and data collection firms ... that was what PRISM was for (under the premise of "only" getting non-American's data .. which of course the Verizon order completely undermines). Standing on a corner eves dropping on what people are saying is a world apart from unconstitutionally entering someones property and stealing and storing all their private possessions.

No doubt there are technological similarities and evolutions here. That is really not the point. Listening and analyzing the chatter and having open and indiscriminate access to everyone's private data are vastly different ... especially since it's been proven that they are data mining as much data as they can to store and hold against people in the future. It's not even close.

The impression with ECHELON was that they are listening for relevant data and discarding what was not relevant. That is distinctly not what PRISM and the court orders on the mobile providers were about. These programs were "illegally" and indiscriminately storing everyone's private data.

These were not open court orders. They were secret and unaccountable court orders. The exact same thing that Police State's use to control and oppress their citizens.

I'm quite surprised by your apologetic reaction JB.

[Moonlight J]

Is this really any different than this 2009 story? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/17/us/17nsa.html?_r=1&

Why all the new outrage from politicos?

[Moonlight J]

and this Snowdon guy is a piece of work. Tough to buy the whistleblower defense when he's running off to China to escape things. He committed treason, plain and simple.

[johnnya24]

Is this really any different than this 2009 story? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/17/us/17nsa.html?_r=1&

Why all the new outrage from politicos?

That article deals with the very grey area of snooping and intercepting data.

This something completely different.

[johnnya24]

and this Snowdon guy is a piece of work. Tough to buy the whistleblower defense when he's running off to China to escape things. He committed treason, plain and simple.

National hero and a true patriot.

[Moonlight J]

^^^
trolling

He could have easily used whistleblower protection here rather than negotiate under his own terms. The more of his backstory that comes out, the worse it smells.

[Moonlight J]

additionally, not very bright of him to run off to Hong Kong that does have extradition agreements with the US.

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1257809/speculation-rife-hong-kong-over-edward-snowdens-fate

[johnnya24]

and this Snowdon guy is a piece of work. Tough to buy the whistleblower defense when he's running off to China to escape things. He committed treason, plain and simple.

^^^
trolling

He could have easily used whistleblower protection here rather than negotiate under his own terms. The more of his backstory that comes out, the worse it smells.

Slander away buddy ... anything that doesn't fit your narrow quasi fascist world views must be trolling right.

Brainwashed nation.

[Moonlight J]

Quasi fascist..lol

The guy used contractor access to pull down info he needed & then ran away to Hong Kong under the premise of needing time off for epilepsy.

Why not try the whistleblower path first and then go to the papers with efforts to do this? Odds are, guy wants a book/movie deal out of this and someone will give it to him.

[Hornsby]

Quasi fascist..lol

The guy used contractor access to pull down info he needed & then ran away to Hong Kong under the premise of needing time off for epilepsy.

Why not try the whistleblower path first and then go to the papers with efforts to do this? Odds are, guy wants a book/movie deal out of this and someone will give it to him.

Because whistleblowers in the US are shunned and called traitors...that's why you don't try the whistleblower path first. And who knows that he didn't bring it to the attention of his superiors, and was told to shut up and go back to work?

[Moonlight J]

very much in agreement with Ellison here

[TranaGreg]

... For example, Johnny noted that if you post personal details on Facebook then it is he supposes fair game. So if he started posting YouTube clips of jihadists on his wall, isn't that then fair game that could lead to further investigation of his activities?

well let's carry this example forward a bit - how would law enforcement conduct this investigation ...

examining those youtube videos, or any other social media posts - cool.
conducting a physical search of his premises or wiretapping his home landline without warrant - not cool.
reviewing information that has already been provided by telcos like Verizon to NSA without warrant or process - ??? ... I'd suggest not cool, others appear to differ tho ...

[Moonlight J]

Check out who the SVP was for the contractor this guy whorked for - http://littlesis.org/org/28274/Booz_...milton%2C_Inc.

[johnnya24]

Quasi fascist..lol

The guy used contractor access to pull down info he needed & then ran away to Hong Kong under the premise of needing time off for epilepsy.

Why not try the whistleblower path first and then go to the papers with efforts to do this? Odds are, guy wants a book/movie deal out of this and someone will give it to him.

You're having a laugh right? The last whistleblower got tortured (sorry ... "enhanced interrogation"), vilified, demonized, publicly humiliated and then put up on a show trial.

I don't know what political orientation you consider yourself to have, I'm just calling what I see.