Verizon Customer?

[nots]

The CIA employee who valiantly gave up details about how the CIA was torturing ---- TORTURING, for god's sake --- detainees was charged under the Espionage Act by the Obama Administration (who have charged more people under that act than all other administrations combined in the history of the US). His wife was also fired.

Thomas Drake spoke out about how the NSA spent $1.2 billion on a program called Trailblazer to collect data when it could have spent $3 million in house. He lost his job and his house was raided at gunpoint. (And I guess we know why and where all that money really went now, don't we?)

The Obama Administration does not pursue those who actually break the law, but those who reveal information about those who break the law.

What's next, targeting journalists who receive information from whistleblowers? Oh, wait....

Spot on.

[nots]

Hell, even crazy Michelle Bachmann came out publicly and said that she essentially supports the President on this issue.

Seriously, Mr. President, if Michelle Bachmann thinks you're taking the right approach with this stuff, isn't it time for a reevaluation?

[Moonlight J]

something that doesn't add up. Snowden quit the job on 5/20 but according to Greenwald, he had been talking to the guy since February, which would have been when he started the job since they said he'd been on the contract 3 months. Very fishy timeline

[PaleoMan]

and this Snowdon guy is a piece of work. Tough to buy the whistleblower defense when he's running off to China to escape things. He committed treason, plain and simple.

If he truly wanted to commit treason he would have sold the NSA roster and list of concealed foreign assets to the highest bidder.

[johnnya24]

something that doesn't add up. Snowden quit the job on 5/20 but according to Greenwald, he had been talking to the guy since February, which would have been when he started the job since they said he'd been on the contract 3 months. Very fishy timeline

Remember when the critics were considered the conspiracy nuts? How times have changed.

[The Feral Slasher]

^^^
trolling

He could have easily used whistleblower protection here rather than negotiate under his own terms. The more of his backstory that comes out, the worse it smells.

What whistleblower protection are you referring to ? And has it protected other whistleblowers during the Obama presidency ? The guy gave up a $200,000 per year job living in Hawaii to go hide out in a hotel in a foreign country and you think he's doing this for fame ? Certainly possible, but you need to save a little of your skepticism for the government - you know, the group that has continually lied, decieved and kept secrets from the American people.

[Moonlight J]

Remember when the critics were considered the conspiracy nuts? How times have changed.

oh bullshit. This isn't Palin pregnant with her own granddaughter type of thing.

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/344040301972815872

Snowden left the job on 5/20, which he said he worked at 3 months. Given February has exactly 8 days, we either believe Snowden saw enough in a week to scare the bejesus out of him, or he took the job with a premeditated task in mind based on what he knew from a previous role.

Hence, why I struggle to give the guy a patriot label.

[johnnya24]

oh bullshit. This isn't Palin pregnant with her own granddaughter type of thing.

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/344040301972815872

Snowden left the job on 5/20, which he said he worked at 3 months. Given February has exactly 8 days, we either believe Snowden saw enough in a week to scare the bejesus out of him, or he took the job with a premeditated task in mind based on what he knew from a previous role.

Hence, why I struggle to give the guy a patriot label.

Dude where the heck are you getting your "facts" from?

Did you even watch the interview?

In 2003, he enlisted in the US army and began a training program to join the Special Forces. Invoking the same principles that he now cites to justify his leaks, he said: "I wanted to fight in the Iraq war because I felt like I had an obligation as a human being to help free people from oppression".

He recounted how his beliefs about the war's purpose were quickly dispelled. "Most of the people training us seemed pumped up about killing Arabs, not helping anyone," he said. After he broke both his legs in a training accident, he was discharged.

After that, he got his first job in an NSA facility, working as a security guard for one of the agency's covert facilities at the University of Maryland. From there, he went to the CIA, where he worked on IT security. His understanding of the internet and his talent for computer programming enabled him to rise fairly quickly for someone who lacked even a high school diploma.

By 2007, the CIA stationed him with diplomatic cover in Geneva, Switzerland. His responsibility for maintaining computer network security meant he had clearance to access a wide array of classified documents.

That access, along with the almost three years he spent around CIA officers, led him to begin seriously questioning the rightness of what he saw.

[JudeBaldo]

The difference is huge JB. ECHELON as far as I know did not have direct open access to the servers of all the major Internet and data collection firms ... that was what PRISM was for (under the premise of "only" getting non-American's data .. which of course the Verizon order completely undermines). Standing on a corner eves dropping on what people are saying is a world apart from unconstitutionally entering someones property and stealing and storing all their private possessions.

No doubt there are technological similarities and evolutions here. That is really not the point. Listening and analyzing the chatter and having open and indiscriminate access to everyone's private data are vastly different ... especially since it's been proven that they are data mining as much data as they can to store and hold against people in the future. It's not even close.

The impression with ECHELON was that they are listening for relevant data and discarding what was not relevant. That is distinctly not what PRISM and the court orders on the mobile providers were about. These programs were "illegally" and indiscriminately storing everyone's private data.

These were not open court orders. They were secret and unaccountable court orders. The exact same thing that Police State's use to control and oppress their citizens.

I'm quite surprised by your apologetic reaction JB.

1. Hence my analogy about the net and the pole. The weakness in ECHELON is that it casts a wide net and leaves gaps in the NSA's databank. PRISM solves that issue. When I said they were the same, I meant that they are both fundamentally signals analysis.

2. That's because the FISA courts have never been open.

3. Whoa. I'm not sure why I'd be apologizing for anyone. I'm just not as vociferous about it as you are. My opinion on this has been quite slow to develop because the multitude of issues surrounding this leak requires me to process them all before opining confidently. Do I feel uneasy that my government has collected electronic data on my posts on RJ? In a general sense, sure. Specifically, not at all. After all, I post with my real name. This is the double edge sword with modern communications platforms. Web 1.0 saw the emergence of a move towards transparency through identification. The advances in Web 2.0 ensured that we would never return to a world completely cloaked in anonymity. While one can argue that anonymity has positive effects on the Web, the move towards an all digital world has resulted in one where identification is paramount. Our digital footprint is the currency with which we trade when we use all of this technology.

[Moonlight J]

Dude where the heck are you getting your "facts" from?

Did you even watch the interview?

Nothing you posted dispels anything I posted. The documents that he disclosed to The Guardian were acquired on his last job, which he started in late February based on his own timeline

That Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court order, which specifically calls for collection of Americans’ private cell phone records, is stamped with a date in late April, implying that Snowden obtained it during his Booz Allen tenure. Other documents, like the October executive order, were dated earlier. It’s not clear whether Snowden accessed those earlier documents during his time working for Booz Allen or in an earlier position.

.

If he had such a fear of state power, why is he working with the CIA/NSA in the first place. That's like a person afraid of heights building a skyscraper.

[The Feral Slasher]

Nothing you posted dispels anything I posted. The documents that he disclosed to The Guardian were acquired on his last job, which he started in late February based on his own timeline

.

If he had such a fear of state power, why is he working with the CIA/NSA in the first place. That's like a person afraid of heights building a skyscraper.

It should be obvious --He developed the fear of state power from working at the CIA/NSA, it wasn't that he had a fear of state power so he went to work there. He thought he was working for the right team and realized that they weren't what he thought they were. You are just throwing out ridiculous arguments at this point.

[Moonlight J]

I'm not arguing anything...I'm trying to find answers to what seems to be a rather nebulous situation at this point. Why take a job with Booz Allen, who processes mined data if you hate it so much?

Did he have enough from his previous experience to go public or did he leverage what he ascertained from Booz Allen to then come forward with everything. So far, the timeslines do not add up. If he started the job in late February, and he started talking with Greenwald in February (both stated facts), then more investigative journalism needs to be done here.

Not on the subject matter, rather, but on the subject himself.

[johnnya24]

1. Hence my analogy and the net. the weakness in ECHELON is that it casts a wide net and leaves gaps in the NSA's databank. PRISM solves that issue. When I said they were the same, I meant that they are both fundamentally signals analysis.

2. That's because the FISA courts have never been open.

3. Whoa. I'm not sure why I'd be apologizing for anyone. I'm just not as vociferous about it as you are. My opinion on this has been quite slow to develop because the multitude of issues surrounding this leak requires me to process them all before opining confidently. Do I feel uneasy that my government has collected electronic data on my posts on RJ? In a general sense, sure. Specifically, not at all. After all, I post with my real name. This is the double edge sword with modern communications platforms. Web 1.0 saw the emergence of a move towards transparency through identification. The advances in Web 2.0 ensured that we would never return to a world completely cloaked in anonymity. While one can argue that anonymity has positive effects on the Web, the move towards an all digital world has resulted in one where identification is paramount. Our digital footprint is the currency with which we trade when we use all of this technology.

1. Edit: I don't really care if the NSA have gaps in their databanks ... they don't not have the right to any of my personal data without my permission (or just cause).

2. Nothing to add.

3. Again you aren't really differentiating between the surface surveillance and the decidedly unconstitutional methods involved in these practices. What you post on RJ is your choice to post ... same with Facebook, G+, Twitter etc. If the authorities are hovering up this data, data you are freely putting out there, that is one thing. It's still a very grey area, because I do not believe that ethically they should be gathering any data about me when I have done nothing wrong. But going into the servers, scooping up my private data without my permission and then storing it to potentially use against me in the future (what other reason are they keeping it for?) is a clearly breach of my rights as a free and independent citizen.

... and just to further show how illegal and disgusting this is, The Guardian also revealed that the UK government, knowing how illegal this was, got the NSA to do their dirty work for them ... thus being able to claim that they weren't doing it themselves. They even went as far as creating procedural formalities in order to have some kind of legal recourse if they were caught ... the NSA "offered" the data, rather than the UK requesting it. Requesting the data would be clearly illegal. With PRISM the NSA go a step further, they don't even bother requesting it ... they just take it.

William Hague (the UK Foreign Secretary) today called the allegations "baseless" i.e. you don't have enough evidence to prove them, as opposed to "untrue". We're in the land of spin and political semantics now. They are being super careful not to say anything that will incriminate them more should more evidence emerge. On the other hand, the Obama crew are still trying to defend it.

[The Feral Slasher]

I'm not arguing anything...I'm trying to find answers to what seems to be a rather nebulous situation at this point. Why take a job with Booz Allen, who processes mined data if you hate it so much?

Did he have enough from his previous experience to go public or did he leverage what he ascertained from Booz Allen to then come forward with everything. So far, the timeslines do not add up. If he started the job in late February, and he started talking with Greenwald in February (both stated facts), then more investigative journalism needs to be done here.

Not on the subject matter, rather, but on the subject himself.

Well you've already argued that he is a traitor and that he shouldn't have worked at the CIA/NSA, and that he should have used whistleblower protections that clearly do not exist. Again, perhaps you should show some skepticism of the group that continually lies, deceives, and prosecutes anyone who dares to tell the truth.

[johnnya24]

Article by Daniel Ellsberg

In my estimation, there has not been in American history a more important leak than Edward Snowden's release of NSA material – and that definitely includes the Pentagon Papers 40 years ago. Snowden's whistleblowing gives us the possibility to roll back a key part of what has amounted to an "executive coup" against the US constitution.Since 9/11, there has been, at first secretly but increasingly openly, a revocation of the bill of rights for which this country fought over 200 years ago. In particular, the fourth and fifth amendments of the US constitution, which safeguard citizens from unwarranted intrusion by the government into their private lives, have been virtually suspended.

The government claims it has a court warrant under Fisa – but that unconstitutionally sweeping warrant is from a secret court, shielded from effective oversight, almost totally deferential to executive requests. As Russell Tice, a former National Security Agency analyst, put it: "It is a kangaroo court with a rubber stamp."

For the president then to say that there is judicial oversight is nonsense – as is the alleged oversight function of the intelligence committees in Congress. Not for the first time – as with issues of torture, kidnapping, detention, assassination by drones and death squads –they have shown themselves to be thoroughly co-opted by the agencies they supposedly monitor. They are also black holes for information that the public needs to know.