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Best Zeppelin song ever?

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  • #61
    LZ aren't as hero worshiped in the UK as the USA. They're still a right of passage for everyone interested in guitar music, but they don't get lauded like in the USA. In my time here, that's one of the differences in preference I've noticed between the USA and UK, and weird considering they are a UK band. The other big bands of that era are usually held in greater regard by contemporary journalists (going back to the 80's).

    When I was younger, I always wondered why The Beatles, Stones, Floyd were much more highly regarded by the UK music press. Then in the mid 90's there were a lot of articles and comments written about LZ's legacy (instigated in part by Noel Gallagher and his rip-off boasts). That's when I first heard about this stuff. Killed the LZ mystic for me a long time back ... though I still really like them (and The Stones to some extent). In fact these discussions have apparently reared their head every few years, and they stretch way back to the early 70's. It's also noteworthy that a lot of their contemporaries haven't been shy about expressing their opinions either. Pete Townsend basically called them frauds.

    In fact a lot of the UK bluesmen are regarded as jumped-up session musicians by the UK press. Clapton is hated in many quarters. I always figured it was style thing, but it goes deeper. That's the thing though ... they all did it. Bands constantly stole from each other in that era. The Stones ruthlessly ripped off The Beatles to almost comic levels. Heck some of the songs in those videos DMT posted were "ripped off" by other bands before LZ. So I'm guessing that LZ were ripping off artists they hadn't even heard by ripping off someone else's cover.

    Most of the bands at that time were up to the same thing though, but LZ do seem to have been one of the worst culprits. Then again, shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. It clearly wasn't all fraudulent. Their biggest crime is clearly passing other peoples art off as their own, particularly Page. In any other field of the arts that would be a death sentence to any notion of credibility and lead to widespread ridicule ... in popular music, they get away with it ... well somewhat anyway.

    If they had've openly cited these songs as influences and given proper credit to all the source material, maybe they wouldn't get so much crap. Then again, if they did, maybe they wouldn't have got the adulation and praise that drove their popularity and credibility.
    Last edited by johnnya24; 04-25-2014, 08:04 PM.

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    • #62
      Yeah, the rip-offs from their first couple albums are pretty well documented, but to me that's more about them being dumb than a lack of talent/inspiration. Their first album was cut in something like 30 days and their second came out less than a year later and was mostly recorded while they were touring so I guess they didn't have much time to come up with original lyrics to go with the great jams they'd figured out. Plus, while there are a lot of borrowed lyrics, it's the arrangements that really made those songs great (especially "Babe I'm Gonna Love You" and "The Lemon Song") and they're mostly completely different than the songs being borrowed from. Either way, my favorite period is III/IV/HotH (my fave)/PG so it's not like my sacred cows have been tarnished.

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      • #63
        I like Zepplin best when they are bluesiest. Dazed and Confused is my favorite song. It's too bad they didn't credit the original author, though such theft was common. I would not be surprised if some of the claims were "genuine", in that the later artist heard the original while drunk, stoned or preoccupied with the girl on his lap.

        J
        Ad Astra per Aspera

        Oh. In that case, never mind. - Wonderboy

        GITH fails logic 101. - bryanbutler

        Bah...OJH caught me. - Pogues

        I don't know if you guys are being willfully ignorant, but... - Judge Jude

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        • #64
          Originally posted by overkill94 View Post
          Yeah, the rip-offs from their first couple albums are pretty well documented, but to me that's more about them being dumb than a lack of talent/inspiration. Their first album was cut in something like 30 days and their second came out less than a year later and was mostly recorded while they were touring so I guess they didn't have much time to come up with original lyrics to go with the great jams they'd figured out. Plus, while there are a lot of borrowed lyrics, it's the arrangements that really made those songs great (especially "Babe I'm Gonna Love You" and "The Lemon Song") and they're mostly completely different than the songs being borrowed from. Either way, my favorite period is III/IV/HotH (my fave)/PG so it's not like my sacred cows have been tarnished.
          You do know about the Stairway to Heaven accusations? I don't think their plagiarism stopped at the first three records



          Audio for stairway is 50 secs in to the song

          Or the rip offs for several songs from Physical Graffitti? Also pretty bad plagiarism.

          Take a look at:
          Last edited by Lurker765; 04-29-2014, 04:30 PM.

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          • #65
            The Stairway one is ridiculous. So he took a few notes from a song and fashioned an 8 minute epic..that's plagiarism??
            "I lingered round them, under that benign sky: watched the moths fluttering among the heath and harebells, listened to the soft wind breathing through the grass, and wondered how any one could ever imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth."

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Mithrandir View Post
              The Stairway one is ridiculous. So he took a few notes from a song and fashioned an 8 minute epic..that's plagiarism??
              I'd guess you weren't on the trial for the Verve and Bittersweet Symphony?
              Last edited by Lurker765; 04-29-2014, 04:59 PM.

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              • #67
                they were just sampling before their time.
                I'm not expecting to grow flowers in the desert...

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                • #68
                  That "Stairway" one's a bit flimsy - it's a similar picking pattern over similar chords, nothing you wouldn't see in most folk songs. "Boogie with Stu" is my least favorite Zeppelin song so I'd be happy if they stole it And "In My Time of Dying" is like "The Lemon Song" in that it's the endless jamming that makes it a great song, not the lyrical content.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by overkill94 View Post
                    That "Stairway" one's a bit flimsy - it's a similar picking pattern over similar chords, nothing you wouldn't see in most folk songs. "Boogie with Stu" is my least favorite Zeppelin song so I'd be happy if they stole it And "In My Time of Dying" is like "The Lemon Song" in that it's the endless jamming that makes it a great song, not the lyrical content.
                    Going to court over this one:

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Lurker765 View Post
                      There is certainly some similarity there, but I doubt the plaintiff is gonna win that one. Then again, I'm still incredulous that George Harrison lost his suit over My Sweet Lord. I guess if you get the right judge - one who doesn't know squat about popular music composition and recording - anything can happen.
                      "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
                      "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
                      "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by senorsheep View Post
                        There is certainly some similarity there, but I doubt the plaintiff is gonna win that one. Then again, I'm still incredulous that George Harrison lost his suit over My Sweet Lord. I guess if you get the right judge - one who doesn't know squat about popular music composition and recording - anything can happen.


                        I am not a lawyer, but from that article by businessweek:

                        "To show infringement under U.S. copyright law, you generally need to demonstrate two elements: that an original work was copied to make something substantially similar, and that the copier had access to the original work."

                        and

                        "Ultimately, the legal test isn’t what experts say. Under U.S. law, the standard a jury or judge would apply is whether the song in question sounds like a copy to an ordinary lay listener. "


                        That link has some interesting information, everything from facts about the case to how Randy California got his name (from Hendrix) to how he died (diving in to save his 12 year old son from a riptide).

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                        • #72
                          the verdict is in: led zeppelin did not plagiarize spirit's "taurus" for the "stairway to heaven" intro.
                          ~ all in all is all we are ~

                          kc

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Cobain's Ghost View Post
                            the verdict is in: led zeppelin did not plagiarize spirit's "taurus" for the "stairway to heaven" intro.
                            I am curious how that case would have turned out if Randy had brought it back in 70s rather than his estate pursuing it after his death. That would certainly bias my opinion if I was on the jury.

                            In any event I would not have found them guilty either.
                            Last edited by Lurker765; 06-23-2016, 03:45 PM.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Cobain's Ghost View Post
                              the verdict is in: led zeppelin did not plagiarize spirit's "taurus" for the "stairway to heaven" intro.
                              The issue was never whether they would be found legally accountable. That's what multimillionaires have multimillionaire lawyers for. They've been settling out of court for decades now. But there's no hiding from the fact that they ruthlessly stole riffs, lyrics, entire songs and passed it off as their own ... especially their early work. It was always going to be more of a credibility issue than a legal issue.

                              For me it was always that they knowingly took this stuff and claimed it was their own ... left a sour taste, especially given the way they were hero worshiped. I understand why they did it, especially on the first record. They were wannabes and nobodies, not legends ... what had they to lose? Who cares about long term credibility when you are just another band trying to get noticed.

                              ... but the silence and denial, the out of court settlements. Seems a large part of their "creativity" was listening to obscure recordings or stuff most people don't know about, "borrowing it" and sticking their name on it. Who's gonna notice?

                              Still a great band ... they just lost their shine a bit IMO.

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                              • #75
                                "every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief ..."
                                It certainly feels that way. But I'm distrustful of that feeling and am curious about evidence.

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