Can I Get a Witness?

[Moonlight J]

this seems like a fitting thread for this...

You know I am an athiest but I'm also allowing my children to make their own decisions as they are exposed to religion. My children go to Sunday School every Sunday so it was fitting that this conversation happened in the car today after school

"After a conversation about what continent, country, state, etc do we live...Jacob says, "Grandma at the beach lives in heaven with Jesus. And I'm not sad anymore!"

This, after waking up several times last night crying for no clear reason. He internalizes most of his emotions, or he blows up with them (lovely side effect of children on the ASD) so this made for a better day and night for him. Tomorrow is the ceremony (cremation, so no body) so we'll see what tomorrow brings.

[revo]

I really, really hate entering these threads, but I'm curious to hear that if humans didn't evolve from apes as science has proven, where do those who believe otherwise think humans have evolved from, if we have evolved at all? How is this particular band of science denied, and if it is, where did humanity start?

:fulllyexpectscopesmonkeytrial:

[Fresno Bob]

I thought that humans and apes had a common ancestor that we are fairly sure was a water pig/dolphin kind of thing....

[baldgriff]

ElD -

Thank you for your candor and engaging response. Yes ITC is my brother and while we have similar belief systems, I cant speak for him. At any rate to address your response to counseling women having an abortion. I honestly dont know what the counseling session is made up of, that said, I believe it would be beneficial to provide counseling services, follow up and well care for these women. This is a decision that has life changing implications and at least giving women a qualified person to discuss it with seems beneficial. Again, I cant speak to what the counseling session consists of, but I would hope that it provides support for the woman - which ever way she would choose.

I have no issue with your stance on ID. My stance on ID, is that it is another attempt to define how God created the heavens and earth. The flaw as I see it, is that they superimpose a man defined timeline. We have no idea how God defines a second, minute, hour or day - so how can we say the earth is X years old. I also agree that its a faith matter - and I would not be a young earth proponent.

Yes horses and donkeys can make mules. I see the evidence that apes and man are very similar, but for me that is where it stops.

I also understand where you come from when discussing the contraceptive mandate. The church I attended, to my knowledge, did not preach against birth control and I guess I wasnt even thinking of that. I honestly dont know any church that has preached against birth control - so it wasnt on my radar.

Hopefully this helps put some color into my answers. I dont mind discussing my viewpoints and I understand that people will disagree with them.

[johnnya24]

I see the evidence that apes and man are very similar, but for me that is where it stops.

[onejayhawk]

I really, really hate entering these threads, but I'm curious to hear that if humans didn't evolve from apes as science has proven, where do those who believe otherwise think humans have evolved from, if we have evolved at all? How is this particular band of science denied, and if it is, where did humanity start?

:fulllyexpectscopesmonkeytrial:

You should probably state the science correctly for a start. Current theory is that humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor. There are big gaps moving from non living soup to single cell life, single cell to multicell, multicell to organs, exoskeleton to bones, the list goes on. What science has is an outline that they think is generally accurate.

J

[onejayhawk]

Which one is the ape?

J

[B-Fly]

I honestly dont know any church that has preached against birth control - so it wasnt on my radar.

Well, there's the Catholic Church. You probably know of it. The primary battle against the Obamacare mandate that all health plans cover birth control has been waged by the Catholic Church. If it was limited to, say, the employees who work in a Catholic church, I'd be less troubled by an exception, but when you consider the number of hospitals and schools owned and operated by the Catholic Church and the number of teachers, doctors, nurses, orderlies, clericals, etc, employed in such institutions, the idea of granting a religious-based exception that would allow all of them to be denied coverage for something as basic as the birth control pill becomes a huge issue.

[baldgriff]

The Catholic Church - yep I guess that one slipped my mind. Sorry. I understand where you guys are coming from and personally I would prefer all insurance coverage to provide basic contraceptive options. However, I still dont think religious institutions should be mandated by the state or federal government to cover something that opposes any tenant of their teachings.

[In the Corn]

Fly - I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment. I think the Catholic church should be able to have the exception. I'm on the fence when it comes to their ancillary organizations, as most of those organization's missions are not, IMO, 100% faith oriented.

Eld - About counseling for women about to undergo an abortion, there are other procedures that you have to have a psych evaluation before undertaking. My sister-in-law had to have an evaluation before undergoing gastric bypass, so there are other procedures that require it.

When I talk about inter-species evolution, I am talking about man evolving from an ape, or a horse evolving from a zebra. Species evolve within themselves.

[B-Fly]

When I talk about inter-species evolution, I am talking about man evolving from an ape, or a horse evolving from a zebra. Species evolve within themselves.

I think you need to start with a clear definitions of "species" and "speciation". At the most basic level, a species is a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature. And speciation is a lineage-splitting event that produces two or more separate species.

So when you note that "species evolve within themselves," are you saying that you believe it is not possible for such lineage-splitting to occur, such that one subgroup evolves in a way that results it no longer having the potential to interbreed with another sub-group?

That's what happened with humans and apes. Apes didn't evolve into humans. A common ancestor experiences differentiated evolution until a point where one subgroup (human ancestors) could no longer interbreed with another subgroup (ape ancestors).

As eldiablo noted, speciation has been observed both in the lab and in nature. So while we of course haven't watched human speciation, we do know with certainty that speciation is possible and has happened (e.g., in fruit flies).

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VSpeciation.shtml

[GwynnInTheHall]

Here is one of my major issues with the Church or religion. They ignore science and fact if it conflicts with their teachings and they'll drag their feet in adopting new ideas. It was religion that insisted the world was flat, that the Earth was the center of the universe and now, that man was just plopped onto Earth as is.

I there were no religion, think of how many lives would have been spared? How many in the course of history have dies in the name of someone's God? Think about it, has Religion actually been good for mankind? I'd say it's a toss up at best with a definitive edge to--We'd be better off without it.

[DMT]

Here is one of my major issues with the Church or religion. They ignore science and fact if it conflicts with their teachings and they'll drag their feet in adopting new ideas. It was religion that insisted the world was flat, that the Earth was the center of the universe and now, that man was just plopped onto Earth as is.

I there were no religion, think of how many lives would have been spared? How many in the course of history have dies in the name of someone's God? Think about it, has Religion actually been good for mankind? I'd say it's a toss up at best with a definitive edge to--We'd be better off without it.

I read an interesting article awhile back hypothesizing that without religion we would never have evolved because it was worship that lead us to form groups and communities and language. I'd post the link but I wasn't able to track it down last time I searched for it.

[GwynnInTheHall]

To be clear, this is NOT my position at all.

I've worked in the non-profit sector and know that religious charities, including the incredibly vast and powerful Catholic Charities, have given an extraordinary amount to the poor and disenfranchised.


I don't want religion abolished. I just want to be free from it in my own life. I don't believe in your god. You, however, are free to believe whatever you want to believe.

Did't mean to imply it was, nor is it absolutely mine--I just get fed up on occasion as the bad **** somewhat overshadows the good stuff. Still I can't help but think--I'm not religious and am helpful and generous and would be if there were no church.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I read an interesting article awhile back hypothesizing that without religion we would never have evolved because it was worship that lead us to form groups and communities and language. I'd post the link but I wasn't able to track it down last time I searched for it.

I think that would have happened naaturally and I do think worship and faith are natural constructs--it's the religion part I have issue with.