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  • #1

    Legal vs Ethical

    It's kind of surprised me (ok maybe disappointed is the word) how easily people tend to shrug off something inherently wrong and/or destructive because it may happen to be "legal" There are so many examples, but I'll go with the latest. Taxes--IMO using legal loopholes to avoid paying your shard of taxes is unethical and though legal, should be admonished, not accepted or celebrated. It's one of the reasons the country is in the financial mess it's in.


    It's a disturbing trend in this country of which the Legal vs Ethical issue is just one small part. We seem like we're becoming more accepting or tolerant of dishonesty, unethical behavior and outright bad behavior than we've been in the past. Have we really become that jaded or have we just been pretending to care about others and the common good all these years?

    just wonderin.
    If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

    Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
    Martin Luther King, Jr.
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  • #2
    Originally posted by GwynnInTheHall View Post
    It's kind of surprised me (ok maybe disappointed is the word) how easily people tend to shrug off something inherently wrong and/or destructive because it may happen to be "legal" There are so many examples, but I'll go with the latest. Taxes--IMO using legal loopholes to avoid paying your shard of taxes is unethical and though legal, should be admonished, not accepted or celebrated. It's one of the reasons the country is in the financial mess it's in.


    It's a disturbing trend in this country of which the Legal vs Ethical issue is just one small part. We seem like we're becoming more accepting or tolerant of dishonesty, unethical behavior and outright bad behavior than we've been in the past. Have we really become that jaded or have we just been pretending to care about others and the common good all these years?

    just wonderin.
    I agree with your statements, but I would not put tax loopholes as the example. Tax loopholes should be used and shared until they close them up.

    Nothing unethical or illegal about tax loopholes. Some of the tax laws are stupid. Still got to abide by them so a loophole here or there is no big deal. Flat tax and we won't have to worry about it.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Gregg View Post
      I agree with your statements, but I would not put tax loopholes as the example. Tax loopholes should be used and shared until they close them up.

      Nothing unethical or illegal about tax loopholes. Some of the tax laws are stupid. Still got to abide by them so a loophole here or there is no big deal. Flat tax and we won't have to worry about it.
      I never said they're illegal, I said they were unethical. People who hide their assets in other countries (corporations as well) are being unethical-not paying their share to the country or community that helps them accumulate that wealth. These loopholes aren't being closed because those who predominantly use them, prevent them from being closed. AND they're not available to everyone EQUALLY. I pay every tax I'm asked to because IMO, it's my civic duty to do so. I guess it's all about what we believe is right or wrong and what our responsibility to others and our community are.
      If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

      Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
      Martin Luther King, Jr.

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      • #4
        most of the poor can't ask their employer to deposit their paychecks into their Cayman Bank account, or decide which of their houses they should claim as their primary residence to reduce their tax burden.....
        "You know what's wrong with America? If I lovingly tongue a woman's nipple in a movie, it gets an "NC-17" rating, if I chop it off with a machete, it's an "R". That's what's wrong with America, man...."--Dennis Hopper

        "One should judge a man mainly from his depravities. Virtues can be faked. Depravities are real." -- Klaus Kinski

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        • #5
          Don't hate the player, hate the game.
          I'm not expecting to grow flowers in the desert...

          Comment

          • #6
            Originally posted by heyelander View Post
            Don't hate the player, hate the game.
            Hate the game, be disappointed in the player.
            If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

            Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
            Martin Luther King, Jr.

            Comment

            • #7
              Originally posted by heyelander View Post
              Don't hate the player, hate the game.
              hate the player that rigs the game

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              • #8
                Originally posted by GwynnInTheHall View Post
                Taxes--IMO using legal loopholes to avoid paying your shard of taxes is unethical and though legal, should be admonished, not accepted or celebrated. It's one of the reasons the country is in the financial mess it's in.
                Well, given the numbers some do pay, they probably don't agree with your view of "their share" of taxes. If I'm uber-rich, and make most of my money from capital gains, and pay a federal tax load of 15%, a state load of 4%, sales taxes, property taxes, and in some cases, city/county taxes, and my tax load is 22% of my income, who are you to say I should pay 25%? Or some other cooked number that some political group favors?
                I'm just here for the baseball.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Originally posted by chancellor View Post
                  Well, given the numbers some do pay, they probably don't agree with your view of "their share" of taxes. If I'm uber-rich, and make most of my money from capital gains, and pay a federal tax load of 15%, a state load of 4%, sales taxes, property taxes, and in some cases, city/county taxes, and my tax load is 22% of my income, who are you to say I should pay 25%? Or some other cooked number that some political group favors?
                  So if I choose to find a way around something and can make it legal I should do it because I might happen to disagree with it?
                  If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

                  Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
                  Martin Luther King, Jr.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Interesting ... your question specifically draws a distinction between legal & ethical, yet most are making the point that if it's legal, it's acceptable. I think some people are missing the question.

                    Originally posted by Gregg
                    Tax loopholes should be used and shared until they close them up.
                    but this is precisely the issue ... if a loophole is in need of closing up, then it's wrong. it's wrong regardless of whether one utilizes it before or after some artificial date.

                    Originally posted by heylander
                    Don't hate the player, hate the game.
                    if the player chooses to act unethically (based on my personal idea of right & wrong), I choose to hate them, regardless of what the rules of the game state.
                    Let's try a baseball analogy. I can't help but think of arod, doing things like yelling "I got it" as he rounds third to distract a 3rd baseman, or trying to knock the ball out of the first baseman's glove ... I don't care what the rules say, I simply don't like those things & think they're unsportsmanlike & wrong, and I won't wait for an official determination.

                    Many people will take the position that if it's legal it must be okay. I think that's passing the buck.
                    It certainly feels that way. But I'm distrustful of that feeling and am curious about evidence.

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                    • #11
                      I think the point being made is that it is ethical to play the game to the limit of legality. Change the question to involve some form of harm or inconvenience to another person and you may see different results.

                      J
                      Ad Astra per Aspera

                      Oh. In that case, never mind. - Wonderboy

                      GITH fails logic 101. - bryanbutler

                      Bah...OJH caught me. - Pogues

                      I don't know if you guys are being willfully ignorant, but... - Judge Jude

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by GwynnInTheHall View Post
                        So if I choose to find a way around something and can make it legal I should do it because I might happen to disagree with it?
                        Not necessarily. But your point about taxes is a pretty bad one. Why is your definition of what a person to pay in taxes any more ethical than a rich person who's paying a tax load in the low 20 percent of their income?
                        I'm just here for the baseball.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by chancellor View Post
                          Well, given the numbers some do pay, they probably don't agree with your view of "their share" of taxes. If I'm uber-rich, and make most of my money from capital gains, and pay a federal tax load of 15%, a state load of 4%, sales taxes, property taxes, and in some cases, city/county taxes, and my tax load is 22% of my income, who are you to say I should pay 25%? Or some other cooked number that some political group favors?
                          You mean like the group that says capital gains should be taxed at a lower rate than other tax brackets?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by onejayhawk View Post
                            I think the point being made is that it is ethical to play the game to the limit of legality. Change the question to involve some form of harm or inconvenience to another person and you may see different results.

                            J
                            That's just it--Legal dodging of taxes does harm others.
                            If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

                            Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
                            Martin Luther King, Jr.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Originally posted by chancellor View Post
                              Not necessarily. But your point about taxes is a pretty bad one. Why is your definition of what a person to pay in taxes any more ethical than a rich person who's paying a tax load in the low 20 percent of their income?
                              Because the rich people lobbied the tax load for their type of money to be lower than any other type of money?

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