Affordable Health Care Law under review by SCOTUS

[GwynnInTheHall]

Eld, this has been said before, but you and many others continue to drum the Mosaic Law, but you fail to read the New Testament that tells us that Christians are no longer under the Mosaic Laws, so please don't fabricate truth or speak about what you don't understand as to how I should raise my child. You do not understand totality of my faith, but pick and choose the parts that paint us in a bad light.

GITH, you skipped the part this:

I fully know that the laws of man, no matter where I live will not match up with my values. People should be able to take part in speech and actions that I do not care for. I can and will live with that. As I hope everyone can else.

And I respect this attitude (and appreciate it) but you'll still vote your beliefs correct? Most legislation that addresses these topics are indeed laws which enacted, required everyone to live by them whether they agree or not? So you are, by voting your beliefs, mandating that other follow the teachings of Christ, regardless of whether they want to or not. savvy?

[GwynnInTheHall]

Mith -
I think it was hinted at earlier - if not outright said. People who call themselves Christian vote across the wide political spectrum. There is a group of individuals that do vote strictly on the abortion platform. That alignment in values may be the one biggest vote getter, and I would say is - if a person votes based only on one arguement - they may be short sighted.

However, I also have no idea what those individuals do personally to impact "the rest of the worlds needy".

Not trying to deflect, but its the best answer I can give - as I cant answer for every person that votes in that mindset.

Yet you'd agree that those 2 issues are very big in the Christian community and that people do indeed vote those issues more than they do not.

[johnnya24]

Here is the official Libertarian Party stance on social welfare (not just the two programs that you mention):

"We should eliminate the entire social welfare system. This includes eliminating food stamps, subsidized housing, and all the rest. Individuals who are unable to fully support themselves and their families through the job market must, once again, learn to rely on supportive family, church, community, or private charity to bridge the gap."

http://www.lp.org/issues/poverty-and-welfare

Welcome to the 19th century.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Let me restate my original point:

The GOP will not sniff the White House for the next 12 years--Because:--> They include 2 Planks in their platform that the Far Right have embedded there--Abortion and Gay marriage. UNTIL they remove those planks, they have no shot at winning no matter who they trot out as a candidate. So they either evolve (remove the planks) so they might compete or Split at which point they'll STILL not have the numbers to win.

That's all--no Christians are bad, No GOP is anti poor, just good ol fashioned--you can't win and here is why.

[baldgriff]

Here is the official Libertarian Party stance on social welfare (not just the two programs that you mention):

"We should eliminate the entire social welfare system. This includes eliminating food stamps, subsidized housing, and all the rest. Individuals who are unable to fully support themselves and their families through the job market must, once again, learn to rely on supportive family, church, community, or private charity to bridge the gap."

http://www.lp.org/issues/poverty-and-welfare

I would go so far as to say, that I dont believe that it is the Governments job to feed or clothe people. :grabs the popcorn

[baldgriff]

Yet you'd agree that those 2 issues are very big in the Christian community and that people do indeed vote those issues more than they do not.

I would agree that these issue have been a key planks for the republican party and many in the Christian Community vote solely on those planks. However, it is important to point out, that Christians vote across the political spectrum. Additionally, not enough of them apparently voted for the Republican party this year to change the President.

[baldgriff]

Kind of a funny thing happened and I just realized it.

When I accessed the Wiki page it had a donation request on the top that said if everyone reading it currently donated $5 there fundraising effort would be made in one hour.

Wiki apparently is funded by reader donations no advertising - guess where part of the money going to help the poor and need is going.... its going to the #5 website on the internet.

Just a bit of irony.......

[johnnya24]

Kind of a funny thing happened and I just realized it.

When I accessed the Wiki page it had a donation request on the top that said if everyone reading it currently donated $5 there fundraising effort would be made in one hour.

Wiki apparently is funded by reader donations no advertising - guess where part of the money going to help the poor and need is going.... its going to the #5 website on the internet.

Just a bit of irony.......

#5 in terms of traffic, not revenue.

[baldgriff]

#5 in terms of traffic, not revenue.

Even so, I just found it funny that I was hit in the face with another cause to donate to......

[GwynnInTheHall]

I would agree that these issue have been a key planks for the republican party and many in the Christian Community vote solely on those planks. However, it is important to point out, that Christians vote across the political spectrum. Additionally, not enough of them apparently voted for the Republican party this year to change the President.

I understand.


Different question. Would you agree there are many "Christians" who would say those NOT voting those planks weren't really Christian at all?

[johnnya24]

It's easy to see how Libertarian Party principles strike a cord, but garden variety right-Libertarianism must be one of the most antiquated and naive political creeds ever. It belongs where it originated ... in the 18th century ... the rhetoric hasn't really moved on despite the fact we have moved through the industrial and technological ages. In fact I'd hazard a guess that the people who shaped the principles on which these ideas are based would be appalled at the sheepish adherence to 250 year old and highly contextual pre-modern ideals. Many of these people were true visionaries.

It's especially ironic that these ideas are espoused by so many alleged practicing Christians ... given that the implementation of these policies would lead to huge suffering, privation, hunger, death and general despair among societies poor.

But hey that's what Jesus taught right? ... dog eat dog, the deification of private property and inherited wealth, the protection of private property as the highest form of authority, inherent and codified inequality, usury, unregulated free market capitalism ...

... oh wait a minute that wasn't Jesus, that was Ane Rand ... common mistake, sorry.

[baldgriff]

Forgive me - but my recollection of the feudalism is that it is a society where the power was based on the ownership of land. The land owner controlled the vassal/working class because they didn't own any land. Power was either because you owned the land or the crown made you the ruler of the land area and thus responsible for the actions of the working class vassals.

I just don't foresee us having to chop down trees with a herring or bring out our dead by moving to a more libertarian alternative...

[johnnya24]

I can't really tell if you're being sarcastic or joking.

Wholesale privatization of the state is the common thread between feudalism and libertarianism. There have been many books written on the subject.

"The country was founded on the principle that the primary role of government is to protect property from the majority. And so it remains." Noam Chomsky

Private property is the very essence of Libertarianism. It's not just important, it's everything. Whoever owns rules. It is the ultimate form of entitlement, as counter-intuitive as that may seem.

"This is mine! The state should have one job, and that is to help me protect what is mine. The whole power of the State should BENEFIT me, and look after my interests."

Pretty much the opposite of what Jesus taught ... and blindly adhered to by many people who have practically nothing. Why the hell should the state just exist to entitle the rich, the wealthy and the landed? The state should exist for everyone, and should represent everyone in one way or another ... especially the fundamental aspects of a first world country: education, healthcare, social security, and defense.

[baldgriff]

Guys - you asked me if I was comfortable with the libertarian platform. As such I went to their candidate for Pres. When I reviewed what he was running on - much of his statements resonate with my thoughts. I would prefer less govt, revision of some of the social programs that seem to be ineffective or need some streamlining.

So when casting my vote I picked the individual that seemed to best match my thoughts..

Do I expect us change our voting based on who owns what? Nope. Each individual should still have a voice.

[johnnya24]

Guys - you asked me if I was comfortable with the libertarian platform. As such I went to their candidate for Pres. When I reviewed what he was running on - much of his statements resonate with my thoughts. I would prefer less govt, revision of some of the social programs that seem to be ineffective or need some streamlining.

So when casting my vote I picked the individual that seemed to best match my thoughts..

Do I expect us change our voting based on who owns what? Nope. Each individual should still have a voice.

That is fundamentally what you are voting for.

The populist platform is: less government intrusion into my private affairs, pay less tax to bloated federal government etc etc. Like I said it resonates with hard working people at a basic level. But the USA is one of the only countries in the world where Libertarianism has found a platform among the traditional center. That in itself should be worrying. Elsewhere these ideals will be expressed as Anarchism, or far-right proto-facism (like Golden Dawn in Greece).

The reality is: Libertarism is the ultimate form of social greed designed to prevent even an unfair distribution of societies wealth ... even the barest minimal redistribution of wealth is seen as a heresy. Wealth should remain 100% in the hands of those who can grab it. If you can't grab it ... tough. The platform they present is a smoke screen, but it's often not a deliberate smoke screen ... many advocates seem to genuinely (and laughably) believe that this is the best way forward for a nation of 300 million people. And this makes the message seem more genuine.

A massive country of 300 million people needs a gigantic bureaucratic machine just to function at a minimal level. Listening to Libertarian rhetoric is comical.