At What Point Does This Become a Constitutional Crisis?

[Bob Kohm]

John Boehner made a startling pronouncement today. Speaking about the House GOP Members, Boehner said, "a lot of them believe that if we get passed August the second and we have enough chaos, we could force the Senate and the White House to accept a balanced budget amendment...I don’t think that that strategy works. Because I think the closer we get to August the second, frankly, the less leverage we have vis a vis our colleagues in the Senate and the White House."

This is a difficult question to ask, but given that we now have confirmation that an element in the House is trying to plunge the nation into chaos specifically by damaging our economy and world standing-- precisely the strategy employed by Osama bin-Laden-- at what point do we descend into a Constitutional crisis with the President forced to act protect and defend of the Constitution against those Members? I can't imagine a more horrible scenario, but we're getting closer and closer to it. This is passing beyond the "Washington sucks" stage and directly into something that threatens our national security and domestic solvency.

The Tea Party reps came to Washington mouthing slogans about burning the government down and reshaping it in their image. As we stand on the precipice of disaster, is it possible that they really do want to burn the government down in a pretty literal sense, by actively working to plunge us as a nation into chaos for their own purposes, despite the damage it will do?

The 14th Amendment option has been widely discussed and may well be valid if we get to the point of the President having to invoke it to avoid a default. If that doesn't work, though, can anyone else darker options?

[Moonlight J]

Press went at Carney pretty hard on the 14th today and it sounded like it wasn't an option

[Moonlight J]

Insight from Steve Benen on it http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/pol...utio031134.php

[Fresno Bob]

John Boehner made a startling pronouncement today. Speaking about the House GOP Members, Boehner said, "a lot of them believe that if we get passed August the second and we have enough chaos, we could force the Senate and the White House to accept a balanced budget amendment...I don’t think that that strategy works. Because I think the closer we get to August the second, frankly, the less leverage we have vis a vis our colleagues in the Senate and the White House."

This is a difficult question to ask, but given that we now have confirmation that an element in the House is trying to plunge the nation into chaos specifically by damaging our economy and world standing-- precisely the strategy employed by Osama bin-Laden-- at what point do we descend into a Constitutional crisis with the President forced to act protect and defend of the Constitution against those Members? I can't imagine a more horrible scenario, but we're getting closer and closer to it. This is passing beyond the "Washington sucks" stage and directly into something that threatens our national security and domestic solvency.

The Tea Party reps came to Washington mouthing slogans about burning the government down and reshaping it in their image. As we stand on the precipice of disaster, is it possible that they really do want to burn the government down in a pretty literal sense, by actively working to plunge us as a nation into chaos for their own purposes, despite the damage it will do?

The 14th Amendment option has been widely discussed and may well be valid if we get to the point of the President having to invoke it to avoid a default. If that doesn't work, though, can anyone else darker options?

Taking actions to directly put our government into default smells like treason to me.....

[Kevin Seitzer]

I think there are enough Republicans in the House with some sanity that they will cobble together a majority with the Democrats to pass something, for the good of their country, even if it costs them their seats in the next primary election season. That's what I'm hoping anyway.

Otherwise, I don't think it matters what the Obama Administration decides to do, it will still impact our credit standing in the markets.

[Bob Kohm]

Taking actions to directly put our government into default smells like treason to me.....

Sedition is a nasty word with terrible baggage in this nation. That being said, taking overt action to destroy America's position int he world by defaulting on bills to foreign creditors and seeking the support of other Americans to do it starts sounding an awful lot like that awful word. More importantly, whether it meets that test or not, reasonable people are starting to ask if it does. Perception, as we are seeing now, becomes reality.

[Lurker765]

I can't see how the 14th would work. Even if it gets invoked then the Repubs try to impeach on the grounds it is illegal. Who wants to buy in the short term government treasuries that will be taken to the Supreme Court to see if they are even legal?

[nots]

C';mon guys--there is NO CHANCE--none whatsoever, that this doesn't get resolved over the weekend. All of this pot stirring and Constitutional questions are just attempts at fanning the flames to make political points with the public.
It does make for great theatre though.

[cardboardbox]

C';mon guys--there is NO CHANCE--none whatsoever, that this doesn't get resolved over the weekend. All of this pot stirring and Constitutional questions are just attempts at fanning the flames to make political points with the public.
It does make for great theatre though.

at least someone here realizes what this is all about.

[B-Fly]

C';mon guys--there is NO CHANCE--none whatsoever, that this doesn't get resolved over the weekend. All of this pot stirring and Constitutional questions are just attempts at fanning the flames to make political points with the public.
It does make for great theatre though.

I believed this for a very long time, but my faith in a resolution is wavering because of the Tea Party pressure on the House GOPers. Many of these folks owe their seat to Tea Party support and truly feel that any vote to raise the debt ceiling will be viewed by their constituents as an unforgivable apostasy that will cost them their political future. Are there enough House Republicans who will vote for some kind of compromise deal that raises the debt ceiling before August 2? I'm not ruling it out, but I'm honestly concerned.

[Bob Kohm]

I believed this for a very long time, but my faith in a resolution is wavering because of the Tea Party pressure on the House GOPers. Many of these folks owe their seat to Tea Party support and truly feel that any vote to raise the debt ceiling will be viewed by their constituents as an unforgivable apostasy that will cost them their political future. Are there enough House Republicans who will vote for some kind of compromise deal that raises the debt ceiling before August 2? I'm not ruling it out, but I'm honestly concerned.

This is exactly where I am. Nots, I would've agreed with you even this morning, but this quote from Boehner is profoundly troubling. This sounds to me like an cry for help. He's saying something incredibly serious here-- that he has knowledge of people within the House GOP who actively want to crash the government's ability to govern in order to fundamentally change our nation's ability to operate as a modern nation. That's not something that we can blow off as political theater at this point.

Nobody is scoring points here-- the Democrats look to all the world to have been badly outmaneuvered, the GOP orthodoxy looks like a bunch of schmucks who can't control their own and the Tea Party is starting very much to look like a fanatical group of economic suicide bombers. Who can even score points now-- anything that might get done will be chalked up to desperation borne of failure. I think that there's a dishearteningly good chance that we're going to look back on this and see Boehner's statement as the end of the old school political dimension and the start of something dark for our nation.

[Fresno Bob]

What happened to the hardcore Chicago Political machine....the way you score points with this is you put a few of the most obvious GOP/Tea Party fools up against the wall, and wack them (politically, I'm not advocating the killing of anyone). Obama needs to make it crystal clear to the american public that a lunatic fringe wants to "overthrow the government and our economic standing" and that it isn't going to be happening on his watch. He should declare an executive order raising the debt celing to a number that will get us to Jan 1st 2013, then put a bill before congress to "properly raise the debt celing", and tell the american people to watch and remember every person in congress that votes against it...as they are not acting in the interests of our country.

[onejayhawk]

C';mon guys--there is NO CHANCE--none whatsoever, that this doesn't get resolved over the weekend. All of this pot stirring and Constitutional questions are just attempts at fanning the flames to make political points with the public.
It does make for great theatre though.

This is the fundamental misconception of the moment. While it is certainly being used as a political rallying cry, the underlying issue is real.

The issue, of course, is deficit spending as a political philosophy. GW Bush, whom I support, was an adherent. WJ Clinton, of the balanced budget, was an adherent. Ronald Reagan, who never came close to balancing a budget, was not. The Tea Party sees this as the definitive issue of the next generation. This is also true of many in the GOP caucus.

Whatever the outcome of this weekend, the issue is not going away. In two years, this song and dance will replay, not to mention every budget negotiation.

J

[nots]

This is the fundamental misconception of the moment. While it is certainly being used as a political rallying cry, the underlying issue is real.

The issue, of course, is deficit spending as a political philosophy. GW Bush, whom I support, was an adherent. WJ Clinton, of the balanced budget, was an adherent. Ronald Reagan, who never came close to balancing a budget, was not. The Tea Party sees this as the definitive issue of the next generation. This is also true of many in the GOP caucus.

Whatever the outcome of this weekend, the issue is not going away. In two years, this song and dance will replay, not to mention every budget negotiation.

J

I actually agree with what you say--the issue isn't going away. But the cries of anarchy, invoking the 14th Amendment and sedition are political theatre of the highest magnitude.

[onejayhawk]

I believed this for a very long time, but my faith in a resolution is wavering because of the Tea Party pressure on the House GOPers. Many of these folks owe their seat to Tea Party support and truly feel that any vote to raise the debt ceiling will be viewed by their constituents as an unforgivable apostasy that will cost them their political future. Are there enough House Republicans who will vote for some kind of compromise deal that raises the debt ceiling before August 2? I'm not ruling it out, but I'm honestly concerned.

Litigation can arise when one side feels the other owes something intangible, eg an apology. The subject of the litigation is not the apology desired, and sometimes may be unrelated. Amicable resolution is difficult, since the true cause is not before the court. In this case, the court is public opinion.

What the Tea Party, and its GOP elements, desire is an attitude adjustment. For generations, Congress has believed in deficit spending, while talking of balanced budgets. There has never been a bipartisan effort to balance the budget. Instead, there has only been attempts by both sides to cut the issues closely held across the aisle. 2001-2006 proved the Republicans almost as guilty as the Democrats. 2009-2010 showed that this was a relative matter, and that the GOP does have some small moral high ground.

The current negotiations will eventually lead to an unsatisfactory result. As is usually the case when one party employs a whip, the other party makes PR ground. We saw it in the Health Care debate, handily won by the GOP everywhere but Congress. We are seeing it now as the Tea Party is portrayed as the bad guys. There is another referendum in 67 weeks.

J