Will Smith vs Chris Rock

[madducks]

[GwynnInTheHall]

Not a fan of Maher. Several things I could point out that are either--assumptions or conflations by Maher. But hey--Anything to get a laugh right Bill?

[Sour Masher]

Not a fan of Maher. Several things I could point out that are either--assumptions or conflations by Maher. But hey--Anything to get a laugh right Bill?

I've never enjoyed him much, and stopped watching him long ago, as his condescension and smugness is just not fun to watch much of the time, but he is right to defend "his tribe" as he calls it. It is natural and normal for a society to evolve and for what it finds funny to change. But if and when comedians need correction on that, they hear silence or groans in response to jokes loud and clear. We should understand their role as performers and cut them some slack, even when the offend us. We do not have the right to physically assault them.

Violence as a response to thought and words, especially words told by comedians trying to make people laugh is barbaric and extremist, and should be universally condemned. You say it is okay, because he insulted the man's wife. Then tell me why it isn't okay if an Islamic extremist kills a comedian for insulting his God? In both cases, the person feels offended and reacts with violence. If you want to quibble about the degree of violence, they can quibble about the degree of insult. Or maybe you have a line of how violent you think it is okay to get with someone that says something that hurts your feelings. A slap is ok, but murder is not. Is a punch okay? People have been killed by punches, so the line of acceptable violence is fuzzy when you accept violence at all as a response to words, especially words meant as a joke.

There are ways to protest jokes and joke tellers without resorting to physical violence. Dead silence and disgusted faces would have hurt Rock a lot more than that slap did. Instead, he got hearty laughs from the man that, while still smiling, snuck up to him, slapped him, turned around, without fear of counterattack, sat back down, got an award a little later, got massive applause, and partied all night after that. The sense of entitlement boggles the mind. Those applauding his actions boggle the mind.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I've never enjoyed him much, and stopped watching him long ago, as his condescension and smugness is just not fun to watch much of the time, but he is right to defend "his tribe" as he calls it. It is natural and normal for a society to evolve and for what it finds funny to change. But if and when comedians need correction on that, they hear silence or groans in response to jokes loud and clear. We should understand their role as performers and cut them some slack, even when the offend us. We do not have the right to physically assault them.

Violence as a response to thought and words, especially words told by comedians trying to make people laugh is barbaric and extremist, and should be universally condemned. You say it is okay, because he insulted the man's wife. Then tell me why it isn't okay if an Islamic extremist kills a comedian for insulting his God? In both cases, the person feels offended and reacts with violence. If you want to quibble about the degree of violence, they can quibble about the degree of insult. Or maybe you have a line of how violent you think it is okay to get with someone that says something that hurts your feelings. A slap is ok, but murder is not. Is a punch okay? People have been killed by punches, so the line of acceptable violence is fuzzy when you accept violence at all as a response to words, especially words meant as a light-hearted joke.

We're never going to agree on this. A slap is not killing someone. But conflate away. Violence in response to words is warranted in context. The N word? Use it and then feign surprise when you get racked. Violence absolutely is merited at times--the notion that violence is never the answer is simply naďve. Not that I believe you're saying that--but that canard is out there. The responsibility lies with the instigator, it's not up to me to tell you what offends me if we're talking--it's up to you to be aware of what you're saying and how it might come across and accept whatever response you get. Maybe you deserved the chosen response, maybe you didn't but had you put a little thought into your words prior to using them--you'd at least be justified in your outrage.

Again, we aren't going to agree on this. Ever. I do understand your position, I just don't agree with it. Sorry.

Edit: I believe there are things you just don't joke about. Period.

[Ken]

The responsibility lies with the instigator, it's not up to me to tell you what offends me if we're talking--it's up to you to be aware of what you're saying and how it might come across and accept whatever response you get.

I've heard this type rationalization from the abuser in domestic abuse cases way too many times.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I've heard this type rationalization from the abuser in domestic abuse cases way too many times.

Are you insinuating I'm validating abuse?

[Ken]

Are you insinuating I'm validating abuse?

Absolutely not. I do not think that nor did I intend to imply it. I'm being honest that I've seen this same excuse used in those situations.

"She said something that I didn't like so I hit her. And it's okay because she offended me. It's her fault."

And the worst part is that both sides of that situation actually believe it to be true in some cases.

It's not okay. It's never okay. Violence in response to being offended is wrong.

To me it's just a caveman response - "I mad. I hit. You bad. You get hit." We moved past that concept centuries ago. Maybe it "works", and maybe in some weird way you can rationalize it, but that doesn't mean it's an intelligent, mature response to anything.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Absolutely not. I do not think that nor did I intend to imply it. I'm being honest that I've seen this same excuse used in those situations.

"She said something that I didn't like so I hit her. And it's okay because she offended me. It's her fault."

And the worst part is that both sides of that situation actually believe it to be true in some cases.

It's not okay. It's never okay. Violence in response to being offended is wrong.

I can see you point and thanks for clarifying.

The thing about the Rock joke is this--why has he not clarified his intent? Apologized for be a little thoughtless? If he has--I must have missed it, but to me--given his history with Jada and his science, I consider it more of a low blow/shot than an innocuous joke. But that's just me.

And to your point above, context--What was said? Is she White and he black and she used the N word? Did she hit him after he called her a B*tch? In same sex couples, was a derogatory slur used? I wouldn't blame anyone reacting physically in any of those situations. (though more context might change my mind)

Again, lump ALL physical altercations in domestic situations into "abuse" is irresponsible--Not saying you're doing that--but it does happen.

I do not agree with your assertion (and others) that violence in the wake of being offended is wrong. Context.

[Ken]

I do not agree with your assertion (and others) that violence in the wake of being offended is wrong. Context.

Turning it around, what specifically is it that makes it okay?

Is it okay to pull out a gun and kill the person? No, that seems obvious. OK, what about a baseball bat to the knees. Again, it seems likely we'd all agree that's too far. So what makes physically harming a person in any way okay? It seems arbitrary that anyone would decide "this level of pain is unacceptable, but this other level, that's okay".

Lets just not physically harm anyone in a situation that it's not absolutely required for your safety. That seems like a good benchmark. We aren't cavemen we know better.

[DMT]

Turning it around, what specifically is it that makes it okay?

Is it okay to pull out a gun and kill the person? No, that seems obvious. OK, what about a baseball bat to the knees. Again, it seems likely we'd all agree that's too far. So what makes physically harming a person in any way okay? It seems arbitrary that anyone would decide "this level of pain is unacceptable, but this other level, that's okay".

Lets just not physically harm anyone in a situation that it's not absolutely required for your safety. That seems like a good benchmark. We aren't cavemen we know better.

But it's ignoring the valid point that some words do go too far. I absolutely don't think they did in this instance.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Turning it around, what specifically is it that makes it okay?

Is it okay to pull out a gun and kill the person? No, that seems obvious. OK, what about a baseball bat to the knees. Again, it seems likely we'd all agree that's too far. So what makes physically harming a person in any way okay? It seems arbitrary that anyone would decide "this level of pain is unacceptable, but this other level, that's okay".

Lets just not physically harm anyone in a situation that it's not absolutely required for your safety. That seems like a good benchmark.

Let me ask you a question. If I, Brian, were to go into a bar in Mexico, get drunk and shout at the top of my voice--F*ck all you W*tb*cks!!--and then got my ass kicked, would you think--poor Brian, no one deserves to be physically attacked over words--no matter how offensive or would you think--Brian has always had a big mouth, he got what he deserved.

I'd think the later, even of myself.

[Ken]

But it's ignoring the valid point that some words do go too far. I absolutely don't think they did in this instance.

It's not ignoring that point at all. I'm pretty sure I provided an appropriate response way back on one of the first few pages. If Smith roasted Rock with his words rather than his slap we'd be talking about something entirely different right now.

[Ken]

Let me ask you a question. If I, Brian, were to go into a bar in Mexico, get drunk and shout at the top of my voice--F*ck all you W*tb*cks!!--and then got my ass kicked, would you think--poor Brian, no one deserves to be physically attacked over words--no matter how offensive or would you think--Brian has always had a big mouth, he got what he deserved.

I'd think the later, even of myself.

I think physically injuring someone as punishment is ridiculous. If they called your hotel and had them kick you out, took your car keys, and took your wallet, and kicked you out of the bar I'd say you got what you deserved.

[GwynnInTheHall]

It's not ignoring that point at all. I'm pretty sure I provided an appropriate response way back on one of the first few pages. If Smith roasted Rock with his words rather than his slap we'd be talking about something entirely different right now.

Again, no one has defended Smith, most everyone has mentioned he should have handled it differently. There's simply been mention of how we (I) understand how he could have chosen to react as he did. This discussion has evolved beyond the slap into something more in depth and far more serious.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I think physically injuring someone as punishment is ridiculous. If they called your hotel and had them kick you out, took your car keys, and took your wallet, and kicked you out of the bar I'd say you got what you deserved.

You're a far better man than I.

Edit: They ain't calling anyone if a drunk gringo acts like a dick in Mexico--I'd be lucky if all that happened to me was an ass kicking.