Originally posted by onejayhawk
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10 unsettling answers to the fermi paradox
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Last edited by Sour Masher; 02-17-2019, 11:48 PM.
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Originally posted by Sour Masher View PostAs you can see, you did state that the universe is not infinite, neither in time nor space.
Time is not infinite. It has a definite starting point.
JAd Astra per Aspera
Oh. In that case, never mind. - Wonderboy
GITH fails logic 101. - bryanbutler
Bah...OJH caught me. - Pogues
I don't know if you guys are being willfully ignorant, but... - Judge Jude
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Originally posted by onejayhawk View Post
Time is not infinite. It has a definite starting point.
JLast edited by Sour Masher; 02-18-2019, 12:20 AM.
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Originally posted by Sour Masher View PostThat is the prevailing theory at the moment. But we don't actually know that either. And I'm not sure how space could be I figured it if time is not as well. So, you are again stating that the universe is not infinite. Maybe you are right, but my point is we don't know. And we don't know that we are the only intelligent life in the universe. In fact, it is extremely unlikely we are.“There’s no normal life, Wyatt, it’s just life. Get on with it.” – Doc Holliday
"It doesn't matter what you think" - The Rock
"I borked the entry." - Some dude on the Internet
Have I told you about otters being the only marine animal that can lift rocks?
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Originally posted by Sour Masher View PostThat is the prevailing theory at the moment. But we don't actually know that either. And I'm not sure how space could be I figured it if time is not as well. So, you are again stating that the universe is not infinite. Maybe you are right, but my point is we don't know. And we don't know that we are the only intelligent life in the universe. In fact, it is extremely unlikely we are.
Space is different since it could be open or it could be closed. We cannot tell. Is space the same as the universe or does it contain the universe? We don't know. I suspect that space contains the universe and that it is bounded. A parallel would be a black hole. The matter is contained within the event horizon. Each black hole in our universe is a universe unto itself.
You keep saying that it is extremely unlikely we are not the only intelligent life, yet Fermi's filter is a strong argument that we must be.
Originally posted by Steve 2.0 View PostJ knows. Just ask him.
You seem certain of some things you cannot know. Why ask me?
JLast edited by onejayhawk; 02-18-2019, 03:23 PM.Ad Astra per Aspera
Oh. In that case, never mind. - Wonderboy
GITH fails logic 101. - bryanbutler
Bah...OJH caught me. - Pogues
I don't know if you guys are being willfully ignorant, but... - Judge Jude
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Originally posted by onejayhawk View PostThat's established physics. Bear in mind that we are using time in the observable sense, meaning it only goes into the past. Since there is a starting point, it is finite.
Space is different since it could be open or it could be closed. We cannot tell. Is space the same as the universe or does it contain the universe? We don't know. I suspect that space contains the universe and that it is bounded. A parallel would be a black hole. The matter is contained within the event horizon. Each black hole in our universe is a universe unto itself.
You keep saying that it is extremely unlikely we are not the only intelligent life, yet Fermi's filter is a strong argument that we must be.
I don't know. I can only quote expert opinion.
You seem certain of some things you cannot know. Why ask me?
J“There’s no normal life, Wyatt, it’s just life. Get on with it.” – Doc Holliday
"It doesn't matter what you think" - The Rock
"I borked the entry." - Some dude on the Internet
Have I told you about otters being the only marine animal that can lift rocks?
Comment
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Originally posted by onejayhawk View PostNot true. Here's one.
J
Edit to say: Actually, I was sitting down when I typed that.Last edited by Steve 2.0; 02-18-2019, 05:14 PM.“There’s no normal life, Wyatt, it’s just life. Get on with it.” – Doc Holliday
"It doesn't matter what you think" - The Rock
"I borked the entry." - Some dude on the Internet
Have I told you about otters being the only marine animal that can lift rocks?
Comment
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Originally posted by onejayhawk View PostThat's established physics. Bear in mind that we are using time in the observable sense, meaning it only goes into the past. Since there is a starting point, it is finite.
You keep saying that it is extremely unlikely we are not the only intelligent life, yet Fermi's filter is a strong argument that we must be.
J
As far as Fermi, you seem to accept his filter as gospel, and I still don't understand, even if you firmly believe there is no other intelligent life in our galaxy how Fermi applies at all to life in other galaxies. There are at least 2 trillion other galaxies. Even Fermi's math allows for the possibility that even if only one intelligent species has emerged in our galaxies that it is certainly possible that more have emerged in other galaxies. I know of know possible way intelligent species could engage in intergalactic travel, or no possible reason why they would be motivated to expend the tremendous amount of time and resources to do that given the vastness of resources available in a single galaxy.
I know you are a sci-fi fan (I am too). Maybe reading so much of it leads you to believe that faster than light travel is a foregone conclusion for a more advanced species, but I don't think it is. A lot of your thoughts seem based on it being obtainable. Galaxies are millions of light years apart from each other. Some are 10s of millions of light years apart. Some are billions of light years apart. The idea that aliens are not hanging out on earth is evidence that no intelligent life exists billions of light years from us is absurd to me.Last edited by Sour Masher; 02-18-2019, 11:25 PM.
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I do not accept the filter as gospel. I accept it as a compelling argument that we are alone, really, REALLY alone. So much of speculative fiction is consumed by explanations why we have not detected other advanced life forms that a rigorous argument is important.
As to repeating universes, they are by nature closed, hence not infinite. This defeats the point of arguing for an infinite variety of growing environments.
FTL travel is not necessary on the scale of a galaxy. Sublight is easily fast enough.
JAd Astra per Aspera
Oh. In that case, never mind. - Wonderboy
GITH fails logic 101. - bryanbutler
Bah...OJH caught me. - Pogues
I don't know if you guys are being willfully ignorant, but... - Judge Jude
Comment
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Originally posted by onejayhawk View PostI do not accept the filter as gospel. I accept it as a compelling argument that we are alone, really, REALLY alone. So much of speculative fiction is consumed by explanations why we have not detected other advanced life forms that a rigorous argument is important.
As to repeating universes, they are by nature closed, hence not infinite. This defeats the point of arguing for an infinite variety of growing environments.
FTL travel is not necessary on the scale of a galaxy. Sublight is easily fast enough.
J
ETA: Also, I'm not talking about a repeating universe. Check out Brian Cox's theory of a potential multiverse. It isn't a closed system.Last edited by Sour Masher; 02-21-2019, 08:27 PM.
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Originally posted by onejayhawk View PostI do not accept the filter as gospel. I accept it as a compelling argument that we are alone, really, REALLY alone. So much of speculative FICTION is consumed by explanations why we have not detected other advanced life forms that a rigorous argument is important.
As to repeating universes, they are by nature closed, hence not infinite. This defeats the point of arguing for an infinite variety of growing environments.
FTL travel is not necessary on the scale of a galaxy. Sublight is easily fast enough. ****WTF?****
J
***WTF?**** means exactly what you think it does.“There’s no normal life, Wyatt, it’s just life. Get on with it.” – Doc Holliday
"It doesn't matter what you think" - The Rock
"I borked the entry." - Some dude on the Internet
Have I told you about otters being the only marine animal that can lift rocks?
Comment
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Originally posted by onejayhawk View PostThat's established physics. Bear in mind that we are using time in the observable sense, meaning it only goes into the past. Since there is a starting point, it is finite.
Space is different since it could be open or it could be closed. We cannot tell. Is space the same as the universe or does it contain the universe? We don't know. I suspect that space contains the universe and that it is bounded. A parallel would be a black hole. The matter is contained within the event horizon. Each black hole in our universe is a universe unto itself."Jesus said to them, 'Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.'"
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Originally posted by Kevin Seitzer View PostSpace and time are aspects of the same thing. They are not separate things. What you perceive as time some other observer elsewhere in the universe perceives as space, and vice versa.
(I mean in general, not just by your post)“There’s no normal life, Wyatt, it’s just life. Get on with it.” – Doc Holliday
"It doesn't matter what you think" - The Rock
"I borked the entry." - Some dude on the Internet
Have I told you about otters being the only marine animal that can lift rocks?
Comment
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Originally posted by Kevin Seitzer View PostSpace and time are aspects of the same thing. They are not separate things. What you perceive as time some other observer elsewhere in the universe perceives as space, and vice versa.
Also, some say that space is not continuous but is made of discrete units (perhaps a kind of "string").
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