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San Francisco To Vote On Banning Circumcisions

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  • San Francisco To Vote On Banning Circumcisions

    Linky: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...p_mostpop_read

    **********

    SAN FRANCISCO—A group seeking to ban the circumcision of male children in San Francisco has succeeded in getting their controversial measure on the November ballot, meaning voters will be asked to weigh in on what until now has been a private family matter.

    ...

    If the measure passes, circumcision would be prohibited among males under the age of 18. The practice would become a misdemeanor offense punishable by a fine of up to $1,000 or up to one year in jail. There would be no religious exemptions.

    ...

    Supporters of the ban say male circumcision is a form of genital mutilation that is unnecessary, extremely painful and even dangerous. They say parents should not be able to force the decision on their young child.

    ...

    But opponents say such claims are alarmingly misleading, and call the proposal a clear violation of constitutionally protected religious freedoms.

    "For a city that's renowned for being progressive and open-minded, to even have to consider such an intolerant proposition ... it sets a dangerous precedent for all cities and states," said Rabbi Gil Yosef Leeds of Berkeley. Rabbi Leeds is a certified "mohel," the person who traditionally performs ritual circumcisions in the Jewish faith.


    **********

    Is this not:

    1) Patently unconstitutional?
    2) An completely unwarranted intrusion of the state into private family decision-making?
    3) Something the ACLU should be vigorously opposing?
    4) Something that pro-choicers should be vigorously opposing?
    "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
    "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
    "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."

  • #2
    I really don't understand how this gets on the ballot. It's completely unconstitutional. Silly Californians.

    EDIT - I guess at the same time it is an interesting interpretation of the 1st amendment. It's pretty commonly accepted practice to perform circumcisions, but if there was another religion who ritually removed kids' tonsils when they were 3, how would that be viewed?

    Comment


    • #3
      It's an interesting angle-- imagine if some new religion like Scientology suddenly decreed that all female children must undergo "female circumcision" at birth. Call it "involuntary ritualized sexual mutilation of a minor" instead of circumcision and you have something that sounds a hell of a lot more like a Class B Felony than "circumcision". I might actually be tempted to vote in favor of the ballot question on first blush.
      "There is involved in this struggle the question whether your children and my children shall enjoy the privileges we have enjoyed. I say this in order to impress upon you, if you are not already so impressed, that no small matter should divert us from our great purpose. "

      Abraham Lincoln, from his Address to the Ohio One Hundred Sixty Fourth Volunteer Infantry

      Comment


      • #4
        If the opinion of the medical community were overwhelmingly against circumcision such that, longstanding religious ritual or not, a clear and convincing case had been made that it was dangerous, cruel and harmful to the medical and psychological health of the "victims", then I think you've got a case. I researched this pretty extensively and the medical community is pretty much split/agnostic on the practice. Given the lack of clear evidence supporting one side of this issue versus the other, I think it is appropriately a matter where religious and/or medical privacy considerations should win the day.

        Comment


        • #5
          This is a cutting edge discussion. I'm sure this is just the tip of the iceberg. But I think it will peter out.

          Sorry, didn't mean to be a dick about it.
          “Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.”
          -Ralph Waldo Emerson

          Comment


          • #6
            In SF, if you gather 14K signatures of registered SF voters, you can put anything on the ballot. I think they'd have a better chance of going with "cutting is no longer the default".

            Recent HIV research shows that the uncut have a much higher incidence of contracting HIV/AIDS, which is how this will get defeated in SF. If I could do it again, I would have had my boys cut, instead of having to clean about a 5 foot radius around each toilet. I just had the "retract then piss" discussion with my son after cleaning the downstairs bathroom 20 minutes ago
            "You know what's wrong with America? If I lovingly tongue a woman's nipple in a movie, it gets an "NC-17" rating, if I chop it off with a machete, it's an "R". That's what's wrong with America, man...."--Dennis Hopper

            "One should judge a man mainly from his depravities. Virtues can be faked. Depravities are real." -- Klaus Kinski

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Fresno Bob View Post
              If I could do it again, I would have had my boys cut, instead of having to clean about a 5 foot radius around each toilet. I just had the "retract then piss" discussion with my son after cleaning the downstairs bathroom 20 minutes ago
              how old is your son?
              "The Times found no pattern of sexual misconduct by Mr. Biden, beyond the hugs, kisses and touching that women previously said made them uncomfortable." -NY Times

              "For a woman to come forward in the glaring lights of focus, nationally, you’ve got to start off with the presumption that at least the essence of what she’s talking about is real, whether or not she forgets facts" - Joe Biden

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by cardboardbox View Post
                how old is your son?
                12, I'm embarrassed to say....I was gone for 4 days and was stunned by how much piss there was on the toilet. My 10 year old uncut son has always been a "sit down" pisser (so much so that he doesn't have the man love for letting rip on trees or snow) so its much less a problem for him. I should have put a urinal downstairs!
                "You know what's wrong with America? If I lovingly tongue a woman's nipple in a movie, it gets an "NC-17" rating, if I chop it off with a machete, it's an "R". That's what's wrong with America, man...."--Dennis Hopper

                "One should judge a man mainly from his depravities. Virtues can be faked. Depravities are real." -- Klaus Kinski

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by B-Fly View Post
                  If the opinion of the medical community were overwhelmingly against circumcision such that, longstanding religious ritual or not, a clear and convincing case had been made that it was dangerous, cruel and harmful to the medical and psychological health of the "victims", then I think you've got a case. I researched this pretty extensively and the medical community is pretty much split/agnostic on the practice. Given the lack of clear evidence supporting one side of this issue versus the other, I think it is appropriately a matter where religious and/or medical privacy considerations should win the day.
                  I cannot help but think how that argument gets treated when applied to abortion. And I agree with you.

                  J
                  Ad Astra per Aspera

                  Oh. In that case, never mind. - Wonderboy

                  GITH fails logic 101. - bryanbutler

                  Bah...OJH caught me. - Pogues

                  I don't know if you guys are being willfully ignorant, but... - Judge Jude

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Fresno Bob View Post
                    12, I'm embarrassed to say....I was gone for 4 days and was stunned by how much piss there was on the toilet. My 10 year old uncut son has always been a "sit down" pisser (so much so that he doesn't have the man love for letting rip on trees or snow) so its much less a problem for him. I should have put a urinal downstairs!
                    make him clean the bathroom. He'll learn real fast how not to make a mess of it.
                    "The Times found no pattern of sexual misconduct by Mr. Biden, beyond the hugs, kisses and touching that women previously said made them uncomfortable." -NY Times

                    "For a woman to come forward in the glaring lights of focus, nationally, you’ve got to start off with the presumption that at least the essence of what she’s talking about is real, whether or not she forgets facts" - Joe Biden

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by cardboardbox View Post
                      make him clean the bathroom. He'll learn real fast how not to make a mess of it.
                      exactly, I made him clean the downstairs bathroom and the master bathroom so he could see the difference.
                      "You know what's wrong with America? If I lovingly tongue a woman's nipple in a movie, it gets an "NC-17" rating, if I chop it off with a machete, it's an "R". That's what's wrong with America, man...."--Dennis Hopper

                      "One should judge a man mainly from his depravities. Virtues can be faked. Depravities are real." -- Klaus Kinski

                      Comment

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