Official Sexual Harrassment Thread

[Sour Masher]

I certainly don't recall anyone on RJ justifying or defending Moore. I think Gregg first brought up the Clintons, but he pretty clearly wasn't defending Moore. For my part in this discussion it was not at all about Moore or any other Republicans, but rather a question of why Clinton has continued to be popular amongst mainstream Democrats given his history. And I agree it would be better for everyone if the Clintons just disappeared, but that doesn't really seem like their style.

I tried to answer the question of why Bill still has support among some Dems. I'll recap two arguments for it I made and add three more.

1. Many don't believe the worst of the accusations, and figure, given how many people want to bring him down, if they were true, he'd have faced the music by now.
2. Many are blinded by his post-presidency good deeds; I'd argue that like Carter before him, he has been a better former president than he was president.
3. I didn't mention this one before, but many don't agree with what I claimed in point two--they think he was a truly great president, who presided over a great period of prosperity in this country; they give him a lot of credit for that, and many associate him with that time period, when they prospered.
4. Bill Clinton is smart and charming. Much more so than most others accused of these crimes. It is hard for many to believe, I think, that he did more than charm women into sleeping with him. I think he comes across as less creepy than most.
5. I think a lot of people figure that as often as he engaged in extra-marital affairs, if he was the type of force himself on women, there would be many more accusers than there have been. Like Weinstein or Cosby level stuff. This guy was like the Wilt Chamberlain of infidelity by some accounts. Guys who feel like they can take it rather than ask and charm generally don't do that just once or twice. There is generally a pattern of abuse that would be a larger percentage of his interactions.

[Gregg]

I certainly don't recall anyone on RJ justifying or defending Moore. I think Gregg first brought up the Clintons, but he pretty clearly wasn't defending Moore. For my part in this discussion it was not at all about Moore or any other Republicans, but rather a question of why Clinton has continued to be popular amongst mainstream Democrats given his history. And I agree it would be better for everyone if the Clintons just disappeared, but that doesn't really seem like their style.

Yep. I did bring up the Clintons. And I was clearly not defending Moore.

I brought up the Clintons because it is an old example and not ok like many of the things that are coming out of the closet now. We are not giving passes because something happened years ago. Ask Cosby, Spacey, etc. Oh, and I said Clintons not just Bill, because just like many in Hollywood examples she looked the other way. This also seems to be a damning point in this discussion.

I also was responding (although in hindsight I did not make myself clear) to Soul Masher's comment :some Republicans and Christians are excusing the behavior--it is fair to label them as a group, because they are the only ones doing that.

Well the Repubs and Christians are not the only ones doing that. Follow the money and power. As I said, enough evil to around for everyone.

Go after the individuals not groups.

Christians and Republicans do not stand for rape, sexual harassment, etc. anymore than the Hollywood Jewish power brokers, and Democrats stand for it.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Ugh.

http://time.com/5019182/george-hw-bush-groping-allegation/

Roslyn Corrigan was sixteen years old when she got a chance to meet George H.W. Bush, excited to be introduced to a former president having grown up dreaming of going into politics.

But Corrigan was crushed by her encounter: Bush, then 79 years old, groped her buttocks at a November 2003 event in The Woodlands, Texas, office of the Central Intelligence Agency where Corrigan’s father gathered with fellow intelligence officers and family members to meet Bush, Corrigan said. Corrigan is the sixth woman since Oct. 24 to accuse Bush publicly of grabbing her buttocks without consent.

“My initial reaction was absolute horror. I was really, really confused,” Corrigan told TIME, speaking publicly for the first time about the encounter. “The first thing I did was look at my mom and, while he was still standing there, I didn’t say anything. What does a teenager say to the ex-president of the United States? Like, ‘Hey dude, you shouldn’t have touched me like that?’”

Her mother, Sari, said Corrigan told her about the encounter as soon as Bush stepped away.

“When he left, my daughter Rozi said, ‘He grabbed me on the rear end.’ And I said, ‘What, what?'” Sari said. “And she said, ‘Yes, he grabbed me when they were taking the picture. He grabbed me on my butt.’ And I was like, ‘Oh my god, are you kidding me?’

“I was really, really upset — she was very upset, she was really, really mad,” she added. Sari said she would have tried to take action “had it been just some Joe Blow or something. I’d probably chase him down and yell at him.”

“But, you know, it’s the president. What are you supposed to do?” she said in a Oct. 28 interview. “And you’ve got your husband’s job that could be in jeopardy. I mean, you just didn’t then. You should—you should have always spoken up, always—but we didn’t.”

[Sour Masher]

Welp, I guess that takes the dementia excuse off that table, this, and another allegation made when he was even younger than this make that unlikely. It seems like such a weird thing to habitually do. It is both disheartening and heartening that all this is coming to light.

[Redbirds Fan]

Welp, I guess that takes the dementia excuse off that table, this, and another allegation made when he was even younger than this make that unlikely. It seems like such a weird thing to habitually do. It is both disheartening and heartening that all this is coming to light.

Indeed such a weird thing. This had to be a terrible experience for this young woman. I don't know what the ex-President's mental state is these days, but they clearly need to keep him away from people and start issuing some apologies.

[In the Corn]

Welp, I guess that takes the dementia excuse off that table, this, and another allegation made when he was even younger than this make that unlikely. It seems like such a weird thing to habitually do. It is both disheartening and heartening that all this is coming to light.

At 79, he certainly could have had some dementia-issues, even it they weren't recognized by family and friends at that point. While that doesn't make it right, it does offer some understanding. Please don't think I'm trying to make excuses for his behavior.

In my work, I connect with a lot of experts in aging, dementia and senior care. One aspect that many people talk about is the habitual groping and exposing of themselves by men, especially those with dementia-issues. It is truly sad.

[baldgriff]

Is it me or does the Biden bus seem to be getting a rolling start or push in the last week or so?

Given the various videos of him smelling people and pulling young girls closer - is this tone deaf?

[Sour Masher]

At 79, he certainly could have had some dementia-issues, even it they weren't recognized by family and friends at that point. While that doesn't make it right, it does offer some understanding. Please don't think I'm trying to make excuses for his behavior.

In my work, I connect with a lot of experts in aging, dementia and senior care. One aspect that many people talk about is the habitual groping and exposing of themselves by men, especially those with dementia-issues. It is truly sad.

Good point. I was one of the folks who was backing a dementia angle for this, and I guess I was a bit quick to detract that claim as more incidents are coming to light. My recollection of Bush 41 in 2003 was that he was very with it, but I don't know enough about when these sort of behaviors manifest in relation to other signs of cognitive deteriation.

[Sour Masher]

Is it me or does the Biden bus seem to be getting a rolling start or push in the last week or so?

Given the various videos of him smelling people and pulling young girls closer - is this tone deaf?

If he continues to do such things, yes, it is tone deaf to the current climate and discussion. He'd be a fool to touch anyone at this point, or make any off-color jokes. But old videos of him exist, so those who are against them will highlight them. As rumors he might run are growing, so are attempts to derail the momentum he is building. However, from what I've seen, he just seems like a touchy feely sort of guy. It doesn't strike me as sexual or ill-intended in any way--at least not the examples I have found. I might be missing some, though.

[In the Corn]

Good point. I was one of the folks who was backing a dementia angle for this, and I guess I was a bit quick to detract that claim as more incidents are coming to light. My recollection of Bush 41 in 2003 was that he was very with it, but I don't know enough about when these sort of behaviors manifest in relation to other signs of cognitive deteriation.

In my experience, families do as much as they can to mask/hide any signs of dementia. I've heard some absolute horror stories from people working the field.

[TranaGreg]

Is it me or does the Biden bus seem to be getting a rolling start or push in the last week or so?

Given the various videos of him smelling people and pulling young girls closer - is this tone deaf?

Well, given what the current POTUS's history has been - and his success, well, it's difficult to say how big an issue this might be in the next campaign - some people care deeply about stuff like this, but to many it's not a big deal.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Is it me or does the Biden bus seem to be getting a rolling start or push in the last week or so?

Given the various videos of him smelling people and pulling young girls closer - is this tone deaf?

Videos of him smelling people? Are you serious? Not just leaning in to say something?

[Redbirds Fan]

So what is the issue with Roy Moore?

With all of the claims and counterclaims and the 24-hour news cycle, I have lost track of where we are with the primary issue.

Is it whether he sexually assaulted the 14-year old girl, which would have constituted serious criminal conduct?

Or it is the more general question of whether he regularly solicited high-school girls while he was in his 30s, displaying a lack of maturity, character, and judgment?

Or is it both?

He seems to be denying the first charge, but waffling a bit on the second, or at least trying to conflate the two. Former colleagues seem to be confirming that he was well known for hustling children under eighteen years old while he was a prosecuting attorney.

Now there is the fifth woman, who was over fourteen but who alleges forcible conduct, which would also have been criminal conduct on the part of Moore.

Much of Moore's support seems to be abandoning ship.

EDIT: At last report, the RNC had bailed out.

I wondered earlier for a very short moment whether there was any possible cosmic injustice to Roy Moore in having a national newspaper come along at the last moment and publish the article which would derail his political campaign. I instantly concluded there was not.

Someone should have told him within minutes of his first expressing the idea of running for the Senate "Roy, you must remember that you have been an asshole pretty much your entire adult life. And while that may have served you well here in Alabama, what with you becoming a Judge and all, you are talking about the United States Senate now. Folks take that serious. Folks all across the country take that serious. And you can damn well bet them liberals will be sniffing around your sordid past. You need to think about raking in your chips and pushing back from the table. Roy! Take off that hat and put that damn gun down!"

[Sour Masher]

Much of Moore's support seems to be abandoning ship.

I guess it says a lot of how low the bar has gotten, but I have to admit to being...impressed isn't the right word...more relieved at how, at the national level, the GOP has stood up and denounced this guy. Of course, it does not take great courage to denounce a hebephile/ephebophile, but given the stakes at play in potentially losing the seat to the oppostion party, I'm still relieved our political system has not sunk so low as to try to brush this aside.

All that said, I still fear I will lose a bet with my more cynical wife, who believes all this sound and fury denouncing Moore does not mean he won't stick it out and get elected. Her opinion of Alabama voters is lower than mine. I cannot bring myself to believe that will happen. I mean, can Alabama voters really go out and vote for a guy who has this past, and who has been almost universally denounced by his own party? I want to believe that even if they won't vote for a Dem, they will vote for a write in candidate.

[Hornsby]

I guess it says a lot of how low the bar has gotten, but I have to admit to being...impressed isn't the right word...more relieved at how, at the national level, the GOP has stood up and denounced this guy. Of course, it does not take great courage to denounce a hebephile/ephebophile, but given the stakes at play in potentially losing the seat to the oppostion party, I'm still relieved our political system has not sunk so low as to try to brush this aside.

All that said, I still fear I will lose a bet with my more cynical wife, who believes all this sound and fury denouncing Moore does not mean he won't stick it out and get elected. Her opinion of Alabama voters is lower than mine. I cannot bring myself to believe that will happen. I mean, can Alabama voters really go out and vote for a guy who has this past, and who has been almost universally denounced by his own party? I want to believe that even if they won't vote for a Dem, they will vote for a write in candidate.

They're not denouncing the guy as much as they're trying with every fibre of their beings to defend the Senate seat. If Moore stays, he has a more than fighting chance to lose. And if he loses, no amount of machiavellian scheming will get them their precious seat. So now they denounce, hoping that Moore quits in time to run a viable campaign. But if Moore DOES win, they now have the proper amount of outrage displayed to try not to seat him, but replace him with another Republican...