Warning: Religious/Political Conundrum!!

[GwynnInTheHall]

OK, following in Gregg's footsteps, I though I'd keep the disclaimer thing going.

I've been thinking a lot about religion and politics, not the effect of religion on politics, but rather Christians and political viewpoints.

Now correct me if I'm wrong or am missing something, but wasn't Jesus a big fan of helping the poor? Didn't he say things like-- when you help one of your lesser brethren, you help/feed/clothe me. and also--if you don't, you haven't helped me and will never enter Heaven?

Didn't he also tell the rich man to give everything he had away so that he too may enter heaven? Something about-- It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.......

If I'm understanding these things correctly-- I'd like to know how a Christian can reconcile his faith if he chooses to abolish programs that help the poor or oppose tax increases for the wealthy.

I may be generalizing, but it seems the bulk of the conservative movement is Christian and if so, that their political platforms are in direct conflict with their religious doctrine.

I'm not looking to condemn, just trying to understand how some of you who might find yourselves in this situation--reconcile with it.

[PaleoMan]

Jim Wallis, is that you? Christian doctrine stresses that true charity can only be accomplished as a conscious act of volition:

Corinthians 9 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Having the regional IRS man come around and stick his shotgun under someone's nose for non-compliance, kinda defeats that transformational purpose, don't you think?

[chancellor]

ST has pretty much got it. Taxation, and allowing the government to determine what to do with it, is a whole different kettle of fish than directly providing for others in need. I happily provide time and money to local charities. Non-profits are a whole lot more accountable for their money than the government is. Moreover, the government is rife with failed programs costing billions that were supposed to "help" the poor. Welfare? Gosh, that 30-year success story was so great, a Democratic president dismantled it.

The New Testament provisions for government responsibility are pretty darn close to what was originally in the Constitution - providing for defense, civil safety, justice, collection of taxes and international relations. Our responsibilities - not the government - are to provide for the poor, widow and orphans.

[Gregg]

The rich man had told Jesus that he obeyed all the commandments. Basically he did not need a Savior. So Jesus told him to give all his wealth away and follow him. The rich man could not do that. So he went away ashamed.

The statement about the camel going through the eye of a needle does not mean it is impossible for the rich to get into Heaven just difficult because they are self sufficient on earth.


Just a bit of testimony. I find myself more concerned about the hungry than ever before. I do not want to get into specifics. I have found it strange that at times I am compelled to give certain amounts to feed the poor. I do not do this to "earn" my way into Heaven. I do believe it is the Holy Spirit changing me. This is not something that came natural to me.

I also do not consider any taxes or where it is spent as part of my charge to take care of the poor. I consider taxes as my payment for living in the best Country in the world. I do have my opinions on some programs, but I believe we as a country should take care of our poor. Unfortunately we as individuals do not do a good enough job left to our own devices, so the government steps in.

[onejayhawk]

The rich man had told Jesus that he obeyed all the commandments. Basically he did not need a Savior. So Jesus told him to give all his wealth away and follow him. The rich man could not do that. So he went away ashamed.

The statement about the camel going through the eye of a needle does not mean it is impossible for the rich to get into Heaven just difficult because they are self sufficient on earth.


Just a bit of testimony. I find myself more concerned about the hungry than ever before. I do not want to get into specifics. I have found it strange that at times I am compelled to give certain amounts to feed the poor. I do not do this to "earn" my way into Heaven. I do believe it is the Holy Spirit changing me. This is not something that came natural to me.

I also do not consider any taxes or where it is spent as part of my charge to take care of the poor. I consider taxes as my payment for living in the best Country in the world. I do have my opinions on some programs, but I believe we as a country should take care of our poor. Unfortunately we as individuals do not do a good enough job left to our own devices, so the government steps in.

The vernacular used here is interesting. The "eye of the needle" is a city gate which is intentionally difficult to pass, for defensive reasons. For a camel to go through all of the baggage had to be removed.

J

[Bob Kohm]

Our responsibilities - not the government - are to provide for the poor, widow and orphans.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Are you arguing that the New Testament is not in accord with Democracy? We are the government of this nation-- kind of a foundational principle, eh?

[Bob Kohm]

Unfortunately we as individuals do not do a good enough job left to our own devices, so the government steps in.

Gregg understands and believes in Democracy and the concept of the social safety net.

[B-Fly]

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Are you arguing that the New Testament is not in accord with Democracy? We are the government of this nation-- kind of a foundational principle, eh?

Agreed. As an American community, we are our government, our elected officials, our government programs. We make moral choices at the ballot box and put our money where our mouth is on tax day.

[Wonderboy]

Agreed. As an American community, we are our government, our elected officials, our government programs. We make moral choices at the ballot box and put our money where our mouth is on tax day.

And without a trace of sarcasm, I can only add "amen."

[Jefe]

Christianity and politics don't mix. Sure, you can/should take your faith into account when you vote. But this whole paradigm of one political party being affiliated with the faith and one not is hogwash. The whole point of being a Christian is to try to live like Christ. Jesus didn't get involved in politics in his day, even though lots of people hoped he would. He's not concerned with kingdoms on this earth, and we as Christians shouldn't be either. The idea of pastors standing in front of a church and suggesting who to vote for turns my stomach. The fact that the political party associated with Christianity is not the one that cares about social justice is just proof that the current state of things is not good.

[PaleoMan]

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of the oldest exercises in moral philosophy, that is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. It is an exercise that always involves a certain number of internal contradictions and even a few absurdities. The conspicuously wealthy turn up urging the character-building value of privation for the poor."

-- John Kenneth Galbraith

I've actually heard some variations on that last sentence uttered here at RJ. I think that the Republican branch of US politics (and especially Libertarians and/or those who follow Objectivism) as currently constructed is wholly incompatible with the New Testament.

Conservatives believe in first hand aid that cannot be diverted or misappropriated, as opposed to placing full faith in a corrupt entity, which ultimately places it's narrow needs over the needs of the people. All our legislation is practically written by a select group of lobbyists. If that's not an indictment on your government, I don't know what is!

Does the very same government that raided the social security pool to the tune of several trillion dollars really deserve our unwavering trust? Imagine if a pension fund raided the contributions of their members? What do you think would happen to them? Does the very same government that knowingly injected black sharecroppers with syphillis really deserve our money? Let's forward to 2003, when the Department of Defense could not account for $2.3 trillion dollars that was somehow lost. Oops. I could go on and on about the malfeasance and outright criminal activities perpetuated in the name of good government. Sorry, but the selfish people will pass, on throwing away more of our hard-earned resources down that black hole of choice.

[Hammer]

I trust my church to do the right thing with the money I tithe way more than I trust the government to do the right thing with my taxes.

[Wonderboy]

Conservatives believe in first hand aid that cannot be diverted or misappropriated, as opposed to placing full faith in a corrupt entity, which ultimately places it's narrow needs over the needs of the people. All our legislation is practically written by a select group of lobbyists. If that's not an indictment on your government, I don't know what is!

Then shouldn't it be the focus of religious conservatives to change that, rather than to dismantle it?

[onejayhawk]

Jim Wallis, is that you? Christian doctrine stresses that true charity can only be accomplished as a conscious act of volition:

Corinthians 9 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Having the regional IRS man come around and stick his shotgun under someone's nose for non-compliance, kinda defeats that transformational purpose, don't you think?

Agreed. As an American community, we are our government, our elected officials, our government programs. We make moral choices at the ballot box and put our money where our mouth is on tax day.

Sorry, his trumps yours Brian.

Gregg understands and believes in Democracy and the concept of the social safety net.

Then shouldn't it be the focus of religious conservatives to change that, rather than to dismantle it?

Without getting into the net, and various jokes about other uses for same, or references to the Honorable David Crockett putting it back in voluntary hands is exactly what they are attempting.

J

[TranaGreg]

Then shouldn't it be the focus of religious conservatives to change that, rather than to dismantle it?

... or I would expect those religious groups to present an alternative (i.e. as some have said in this thread, coordinate a trusted organization to deliver the services that would be reduced or removed, be it a religious organization, or some other body that can deliver the support "first hand"); if this was part of the conversation it might have a different tone.