CIA Reports To Torture or Not.

[The Feral Slasher]

Yeah, you are right we are evil, who should we surrender to?

I simply asked you to provide an example and apparently you can't. I could easily provide many counterexamples.

[Gregg]

I simply asked you to provide an example and apparently you can't. I could easily provide many counterexamples.

There is a huge difference between can't and won't.

It comes as no surprise to me that you could provide many counterexamples.

I simply asked you a question who should we surrender to?

[The Feral Slasher]

There is a huge difference between can't and won't.

It comes as no surprise to me that you could provide many counterexamples.

I simply asked you a question who should we surrender to?

Are you trying to see if you can outdo onejay ? Cause you are about at his level

[The Feral Slasher]

There is a huge difference between can't and won't.

It comes as no surprise to me that you could provide many counterexamples.

I simply asked you a question who should we surrender to?

Let's surrender to monaco. There I answered your question

[TranaGreg]

Let's surrender to monaco. There I answered your question

Us Canadians are offended.

[The Feral Slasher]

Us Canadians are offended.

You better just watch out, Monaco will be after you next.

[Pogues]

"Us"? "Them"? Who, exactly, are you referring to? Americans as "us" and the rest of the world as "them"? Radicalized Muslims? All Muslims? All radicalized whackjobs, regardless of religious affiliation?

Edit: Outside of the unrealistic "guy has hidden a nuclear bomb in the city" scenario, I feel pretty comfortable in saying that those that condone or perpetrate torture of other human beings will always be "them" to me.

I admit, I thought of "them" as the whackjobs that were out...there. As I get older, I'm beginning to realize the whackjobs are closer than I thought...and some of them are in positions that scare me a bit.

[Pogues]

Let's surrender to monaco. There I answered your question

You know, I could see Monaco protecting the little guy. They are little...so maybe that's just self-interest.

[The Feral Slasher]

I admit, I thought of "them" as the whackjobs that were out...there. As I get older, I'm beginning to realize the whackjobs are closer than I thought...and some of them are in positions that scare me a bit.

"Us" includes Dick Cheney, Bush, Brennan, Yoo, etc... "Them" includes a lot of innocent people killed or displaced. But we are just better than them, because we're Americans !

[GwynnInTheHall]

I read all of this thread and I have come to the conclusion that neither side knows what they are talking about. Yes you like to debate or argue and it is great fun. The passion for your position even makes it feel important maybe more important than it really is? So now I will weigh in and it really won't matter what side I take. It changes nothing.

I can sit here and say I would never torture someone because it is not very effective. The only reference I have is what I have read about others or have seen from a Hollywood perspective. But what would I do if I had to torture someone to save someone I loved. If there was no time. The one that tv likes to play up is the psycho has buried your daughter, son , wife and they are running out of oxygen. We root for the guy to get the information in anyway possible. Could I do that? Maybe, maybe not. Quite frankly I think I would/could. If I could not would I want someone else to do it for me in that situation, you bet.

But I am told that we have to look at a bigger picture than just ourselves. Well I don't know what I would have done moments after the towers fell. If I had the power to extract information that may or may not prevent other deaths. And I don't know if I did choose to use torture if there wouldn't be some revenge behind the motivation. If there were no other way to get the information that I thought was needed to save lives, and time is running out as hard as it is to say I think I would approve it. I don't know if I could really go through with it, I hope I am never put to the test. Maybe it is not something that can be defined for all cases. Maybe it is not black and white?

Lastly, there are a lot of bad guys out there. We have done some bad things. We have done some really good things. I still want America to be the Alpha dog. The champion of the little guy. Wear the white hat even if it has some dirt on it. I still trust us more than them.

Excellent post. I am, by my own admission, somewhat of a utopian. I want us as a species to evolve past our current selfish, entitled existences. A step, and there are many, is valuing the humane treatment of other human beings. To me, it's not that we should be arguing if torture is appropriate or not, but rather what can we do to prevent others from being in the position to BE tortured.

We, America, have created most of our own ills of this century including 9/11. Was it a heinous cowardly act? of course, but when you create the environment that allows the hateful mindset to be nurtured, you are complicit in your own demise.

So no, I don't think torture is ever justified, not only because it's been proven to yield little or No actionable intelligence or that it creates more enemies and justifies our citizens being treated the same but basically because we need to evolve PAST this crap. It has to start somewhere and if you really believe the USA should be the guy in the white hat, we must begin somewhere. This is a good place to do just that.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Yeah, you are right we are evil, who should we surrender to?

We may not BE evil, but we have acted Evilly.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Us Canadians are offended.

US Canadians? Is that like Mexican Americans?

[GwynnInTheHall]

I admit, I thought of "them" as the whackjobs that were out...there. As I get older, I'm beginning to realize the whackjobs are closer than I thought...and some of them are in positions that scare me a bit.

Jason is no longer a moderator, so rest easy.

[bryanbutler]

I admit, I thought of "them" as the whackjobs that were out...there. As I get older, I'm beginning to realize the whackjobs are closer than I thought...and some of them are in positions that scare me a bit.

the lunatics are in the hall. the paper holds their folded faces to the floor...

[Gregg]

It has to start somewhere and if you really believe the USA should be the guy in the white hat, we must begin somewhere. This is a good place to do just that.

It starts with us. Be the best man we can be. Then be the best leader/father to our families. Then take that to our towns. Then to our counties, then to our states, then to our country, then to the world. (I may be a bit Utopian too).

We have the freedom to make a difference and we should use it to make things better.