Unconditional love?

[Gregg]

Another thread got me to thinking about this.

Do you believe in unconditional love?

Do you think you have it for anyone?

If I think about my kids, the answer seems to be a no brainer, yet many people disown their children. This is something I do not understand. I cannot imagine a scenario where I would just tell either of my daughters we are done.

Husbands and wives are a little trickier. Can they have unconditional love in the face of unrepentant infidelity? I guess you could still have love for someone even if you weren't together?

Thoughts?

[Pogues]

There are a few people I would say I love unconditionally, but they can make it difficult at times! My Mom sure did at times....but my son, my sister, my dad...

Is having faith that someone won't do something to make you not love them the same as unconditional love? My wife is like that for me.

[ironfist]

For me, it's definitely my kids. I don't understand how people can disown or neglect their kids, but that's not us. No matter how big a pain in the neck they may be sometimes, I still know I'd do anything for them. I'm trying to imagine the worst thing that my kids could possibly do and I think I'd still love them, even though I might be very disappointed or angry with them.

[dslaw]

I have a step daughter who my wife still says she loves. The step daughter moved out 3 months before graduating high school, moved back in, got married, got pregnant, moved back in before the kid was born, proceeded to move out and in about 10 times. Won't get a job, does drugs, has three kids but lost all three to the fathers. One father didn't want the kid and sent her to live with his family so we footed the legal bills to enable the step daughter to get that kid back. Step daughter was in and out of prison, usually over night deals for drug possession or non payment of one thing or another. Step daughter is into us for between $15,000-$20,000 over legal bills, rent payments, bail, other money here and there to help out. Caused large problems between me, who thinks she needs to learn the hard way she can't continually screw up, and the wife, who thinks she must always help out her daughter because it is her daughter. When step daughter finally went to prison for a few months over drug charges and we took custody of the grand kid my wife finally said enough is enough and refused to bail her out or help her financially since.

If my wife can still say she loves her daughter after all this I have to believe in unconditional love.

[DMT]

I have a step daughter who my wife still says she loves. The step daughter moved out 3 months before graduating high school, moved back in, got married, got pregnant, moved back in before the kid was born, proceeded to move out and in about 10 times. Won't get a job, does drugs, has three kids but lost all three to the fathers. One father didn't want the kid and sent her to live with his family so we footed the legal bills to enable the step daughter to get that kid back. Step daughter was in and out of prison, usually over night deals for drug possession or non payment of one thing or another. Step daughter is into us for between $15,000-$20,000 over legal bills, rent payments, bail, other money here and there to help out. Caused large problems between me, who thinks she needs to learn the hard way she can't continually screw up, and the wife, who thinks she must always help out her daughter because it is her daughter. When step daughter finally went to prison for a few months over drug charges and we took custody of the grand kid my wife finally said enough is enough and refused to bail her out or help her financially since.

If my wife can still say she loves her daughter after all this I have to believe in unconditional love.

This is very unfortunate but I'm happy for you that she's decided to end her financial support. But if it was your daughter, would you not love her anymore because she's a complete fuck up?

The ultimate test of conditional love for parents would be to consider if their children were to become serial killers (including the murder of your spouse for icing on the cake). Of course no one can imagine their kids becoming serial killers yet most of them were raised by at least one of their parents. With my feelings on murder, I don't know if I could still love my children if they were commit multiple murders. Thankfully, my girls are both very well-adjusted and get along with other kids so the likelihood of this horror ever becoming reality is extremely unlikely.

[ironfist]

This is very unfortunate but I'm happy for you that she's decided to end her financial support. But if it was your daughter, would you not love her anymore because she's a complete fuck up?

The ultimate test of conditional love for parents would be to consider if their children were to become serial killers (including the murder of your spouse for icing on the cake). Of course no one can imagine their kids becoming serial killers yet most of them were raised by at least one of their parents. With my feelings on murder, I don't know if I could still love my children if they were commit multiple murders. Thankfully, my girls are both very well-adjusted and get along with other kids so the likelihood of this horror ever becoming reality is extremely unlikely.

I was thinking about such a case - would I love them any less? I think if one child killed the other may be a deal breaker. Other than that, I'd question my own parenting, I'd wonder how this could have happened. I'd no doubt be a wreck. Would I stop loving her? Right now I think that I wouldn't but unless we were in that situation, who knows how we'd react.

[revo]

I've always thought of it more as a Musical Youth song, but apparently it's considered by Donna Summer:

[Fresno Bob]

This is very unfortunate but I'm happy for you that she's decided to end her financial support. But if it was your daughter, would you not love her anymore because she's a complete fuck up?

The ultimate test of conditional love for parents would be to consider if their children were to become serial killers (including the murder of your spouse for icing on the cake). Of course no one can imagine their kids becoming serial killers yet most of them were raised by at least one of their parents. With my feelings on murder, I don't know if I could still love my children if they were commit multiple murders. Thankfully, my girls are both very well-adjusted and get along with other kids so the likelihood of this horror ever becoming reality is extremely unlikely.

Serial killer/Serial Rapist was where I was thinking, and yea, if I figured out that one of my children was one, I'd feel it was my responsibility to society to kill them myself if I couldn't get them treatment that stopped the behavior.

[Gregg]

Certainly we have to imagine the most extreme cases to test our thoughts on unconditional love as many have done so here.

There are consequences for those extreme cases, ranging from lack of support all the way to life in prison. I don't think I would ever stop loving my kids if something went tragically wrong. It wouldn't mean that with a broken heart I wouldn't have to walk through those consequences with them. Maybe "have to" is the wrong choice of words. Maybe would walk with them is better. At least for me I think this goes back to the other post in hating the sin not the sinner. Given the examples that you have posted, I certainly would hate the behavior, but I don't think I could stop loving the child.

[Fresno Bob]

Any real hate I'd have in the "my child is a serial killer" scenario would be for myself, because of my own failings as a parent and the pain that caused for the families of the victims

[Gregg]

I don't understand this "hating the sin, not the sinner" Christian meme. How about you just stop hating stuff, period? It seems weird that some random quote from St. Augustine ("with love for mankind and hatred for sins") more than 200 years after Christ would be co-opted by Christians to this degree. It was actually Ghandi in his 1929 biography who coined the phrase "hate the sin and not the sinner."

I mean, you really "hate" adultery? Homosexuality? Tattoos? Gossiping? Doesn't strike me as terribly reflective of Jesus' overall message.




That all said, I still wouldn't ever stop loving my child even if he turned out to be a monster. But man, if one child killed the other --- wow, that's something I just cannot even begin to fathom.

Nah, you understand it. You don't want to admit it, you might not even agree with it, but you understand it. I am not biting on the Christians are intolerant bad people that you want to bait me into defending.

Let me ask you a question; do you not hate murder, rape, child abuse, tyranny, bullying, stealing from the poor? I might suggest that you would hate them even more if your child did those things. And still you would love them.

On the Jesus front, you do know that he preached a much tougher road than Jewish law required to be sinless. He was teaching that all sin even the smallest would be in need of a Savior to enter the kingdom of Heaven. And He taught that he was the Savior. His message was one of love, but not tolerance of sin.

[Gregg]

Do I "hate" bullying or stealing? Um, not really. Do I "hate" murder? I guess, depending on the definition.

I'm not trying to bait you into "Christians are intolerant, bad people" and I don't think I represented that in my previous post. Everyone knows Christians are intolerant, bad people based on things wholly different than using memes stolen from Ghandi.

You left out rape, child abuse, tyranny, stealing from the poor.

[Gregg]

ElD we can continue this, but for now how about a hand with my trade question in the other thread? Thanks.

[Gregg]

Sorry, I just meant that my point was that I don't really "hate" those things, although I suppose that point could be debated based on the severity of the crime. I certainly dislike the fact that some crimes exist but I guess it just never rises to the level of "hate" for me.

I let all my anger out right away (don'tcha know?). I can't be bothered to carry around something as heavy as hate for something I have very little ability to change. Stealing from the poor sure pisses me right off, though.

It may be that we just have a misunderstanding of terms. What do you consider to be your definition of hate?

Seems to me that your emotional reaction to stealing from the poor would fall under my definition of hate for the purposes of discussing hating the sin. If asked I would say that ElD hates stealing from the poor. Does he hate those people that steal from the poor? By your posts I would say probably not.

Oh and thanks for your help with my trade.

[nullnor]

when my cat was dying of kidney and heart disease I worried she didn't understand I still loved her the same, while putting her through additional suffering trying to keep her alive longer. but she knew. she knew everything that was going on.

I guess ppl will say that's what pets do, give you unconditional love. but how do you handle that when your suffering or dying? I think there's a pattern. owners have it for pets. parents have it for their children. and gods have it for their creations. you can't measure it with science. you can't define it with philosophy. you can't compute it with logic. all you can do is experience it.

I think unconditional love is also what old ppl have for each other when one of them is dying. ppl debate end of life care. but it's not about an extra month to enjoy life. it's about an extra month to go back and try to fix the past.

in the two slit experiment when an electron goes thru either the left or the right, a decision is made. one that you can't reverse and change. if an observer is emotionally invested, being able to go back and change the results negates it's meaning.

but then im not sure there's ever been a time travel movie where love wasn't the reason. I wish you could measure love the way you measure time. both don't really seem to exist as a force of nature, only in it's minutiae.