Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[GwynnInTheHall]

Is an all out military ground war in Europe inevitable? Wit Putin striking bases 15 miles from the Polish border, his threat of attacking any convoys bringing aid to Ukraine and his recruitment of soldiers (mercenaries) from the Middle East--it seems almost a forgone conclusion that a Nato member will be hit even inadvertently and away we'll go.

Maybe this has been the plan all along--see how far you can push into the West, look inept doing so and when you drop a bomb on an Nato aide convoy (or hit a Nato ally) and the West/Nato/US responds, they come out guns blazing with China by their side.

I know I sound like MTG, but I can definitely see a clear path to US military involvement starting to form.

[Sour Masher]

Elon Musk has challenged Putin to combat with the winner getting Ukraine. He says he is totally serious. The dude is really an oddball. So many flaws, and yet one of the most important people of our lifetimes--doing tremendous good while also attacking critics with unfounded claims of pedophilia and challenging world leaders to hand-to-hand combat for the freedom of a country. I guess you have to take the good with the bad. If social media were around long ago, I'm sure a lot of great figures would have revealed themselves to be awkward, egotistical man-children too.

https://www.businessinsider.com/elon...ukraine-2022-3

[Bene Futuis]

Koch Industries refuses to shut down its Russia operations.

[Sour Masher]

Koch Industries refuses to shut down its Russia operations.

Disappointing, but not surprising for a family business that was built on building refineries for Hitler and Stalin. Profit built on bodies and on destroying the environment.

[GwynnInTheHall]

And now Putin is asking China for military help. Should be an interesting week.

[Sour Masher]

And now Putin is asking China for military help. Should be an interesting week.

Since WWII, humans have enjoyed an almost unprecedented run of relative peace. There have been wars between nations and lots of internal conflicts, but despite that, by historical standards, it has not been better than "normal," and the vast majority of wars have involved an authoritarian regime, and the vast majority of internal conflicts have occurred in places that used to be under foreign rule and are finding their own power balance. Democracies cut down on wars--people do not want war and are usually not going to vote to support them. But this conflict could be a key pivot point. Either the trend continues and we can evolve past major wars and border conflicts, or we can tip in the other direction into WWIII. I do not see that happening, though. The stakes are too high with nuclear arms in play.

[ironfist]

If China gets involved, I don't see how this doesn't erupt into a global conflict. Ukraine is holding their own so far against Russia but time's not on their side. Are we really going to sit by and watch Russia and China obliterate Ukraine into dust? I sure hope not.

[GwynnInTheHall]

If China gets involved, I don't see how this doesn't erupt into a global conflict. Ukraine is holding their own so far against Russia but time's not on their side. Are we really going to sit by and watch Russia and China obliterate Ukraine into dust? I sure hope not.

I was reading an article written by someone in Ukraine about how they sat by thinking--It's not my problem (country) when Russia went after other regions and now she's in Kyiv trying to survive the onslaught and is comparing her past nonchalance to Western response to this conflict.

Thoughts' and Prayers, sanctions, aid, admiration and other positive actions taken by the West just aren't enough--

[ironfist]

I was reading an article written by someone in Ukraine about how they sat by thinking--It's not my problem (country) when Russia went after other regions and now she's in Kyiv trying to survive the onslaught and is comparing her past nonchalance to Western response to this conflict.

Thoughts' and Prayers, sanctions, aid, admiration and other positive actions taken by the West just aren't enough--

The sanctions are taking too long to hurt them and in the meanwhile the country is being erased. It's clear the billionaires including Putin already have the bulk of their assets in other locations that sanctions aren't hitting. It's really up to the Russian people at this point. At some point we will be forced to call his bluff, I'm afraid.

[Bene Futuis]

Remember back in 2019 when Donald Trump told everyone he desperately wanted Russia back in the G-8 and then lied to everyone about it, claiming that Russia was only kicked out because Putin had "outsmarted" Obama?

Yeah, it was actually because Russia invaded Ukraine.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I was reading an article written by someone in Ukraine about how they sat by thinking--It's not my problem (country) when Russia went after other regions and now she's in Kyiv trying to survive the onslaught and is comparing her past nonchalance to Western response to this conflict.

Thoughts' and Prayers, sanctions, aid, admiration and other positive actions taken by the West just aren't enough--

Here's the article--Great Read.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/what-if-world-war-iii-has-already-started/627054/?fbclid=IwAR1Uiq9_LKndbdouwIt4b8ntzuaKa9I5-ar1RHWlvlGM8PXh7HK35YlanJE

[The Feral Slasher]

Here's the article--Great Read.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...PXh7HK35YlanJE

What's the expected outcome if NATO intervenes in Ukraine ? We know the potential worst case (which though unlikely pretty much rules out intervention in my mind). I'm curious what the likely case and best case expectations are. We should at least define that before taking any action. I haven't seen it discussed so I'd appreciate any thoughts or references to articles, etc. Do we have confidence that intervention and escalation of the war will make things better ?

[Gregg]

I hope this is true. From the Hill:

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on Wednesday said peace talks with Russia were starting to "sound more realistic" as Russia voiced a similar sentiment as Moscow's invasion rages on into its third week of attacks.

"Efforts are still needed, patience is needed," the Ukrainian president said during a TV address.

On Russia's side, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told RBC News that "neutral status is now being seriously discussed along, of course, with security guarantees," according to Reuters.

"Now this very thing is being discussed in negotiations - there are absolutely specific formulations which in my view are close to agreement," he added, noting that the talks had not been easy but there was "some hope of reaching a compromise."

[heyelander]

what can russia get out of this to save face?

[Bene Futuis]

The oil and gas companies are sure enjoying a little war profiteering right now with their price of gasoline, even as the price of oil continues to plummet. Hopefully the Democrats/Elizabeth Warren will be successful in pushing their war profiteering bill, as has been proposed. That's some seriously evil stuff.