Obama and Afghanistan

[MagSeven]

The original withdrawal was negotiated by former guy WITH THE TALIBAN and not the Afghan gov't. But now we're upset that the Taliban are the ones getting the benefit of the bargain our country made with the Taliban? And former guy was the one who acceded to the Taliban demand, for reasons unknown, that the Afghan government NOT be a part of the negotiations. This fake hand-wringing and pearl-clutching is disingenuous and infuriating.

Agreed. The former guy insisted that Pakistan release Baradar from prison to enhance the 'peace-keeping process'. It was the former guy and Pompeo who met with Baradar to carve out this agreement. It was the former guy who had invited the Taliban to Camp David (but thankfully that was shot down). So now Baradar is the new Afghan president. It was the former guy who said that we had to be out by May 1 or else our troops would be in danger. And yes, like Biden said, "I am the President of the United States. The buck stops with me." BTW, we never heard those words from the former guy.
As an aside, I wonder how many of those Afghan men trying to hang on to the US planes were former members of the Afghan army.

[chancellor]

I'll leave this with quotes from BBC writer Jon Sopol - an individual who certainly can not be considered pro-Trump.

The shambolic unravelling of America's withdrawal from Afghanistan comes from a yet to be written textbook of "how to lose at everything". Warnings hadn't been heeded, intelligence was clearly totally inadequate, planning was lamentable, execution woeful.

Biden's election campaign could be boiled down to three messages to distinguish himself from Donald Trump. First, he would be more empathetic. He would be more competent. And instead of "America First", it would be replaced by the mantra "America is back".

But in his address yesterday, there wasn't a whole lot of empathy towards the thousands of Afghans who've helped Americans these past 20 years. On competence, even his biggest cheerleaders would struggle to say the withdrawal of American troops has been anything other than shambolic.

And after the bewildering events of the past few days, how exactly is America back? Many see what has unfolded on President Biden's watch in Afghanistan as a linear continuation of Donald Trump's America First policies - and, as some have joked cruelly, not as well organised.

Joe Biden has never been a "liberal interventionist", thinking that liberal democracy is something that can be shipped out of Baltimore Harbour in 40ft containers and exported around the world. He thinks the US military should only be overseas to defend vital US interests. And with al-Qaeda largely beaten, Osama Bin Laden dead, it was job done. Time to come home.

That is a view, I should add, shared by millions of Americans. But approving of the policy is very different from the dysfunctional implementation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58252174

[Mithrandir]

I'll leave this with quotes from BBC writer Jon Sopol - an individual who certainly can not be considered pro-Trump.







https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58252174

Could the withdrawal have been any better? Who knows? We just comment on based on the info that we are given. We don't know everything behind the scenes. How could one expect this withdrawal to be anything but a clusterfuck given the groups involved. At least Biden had the balls to get us out.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Could the withdrawal have been any better? Who knows? We just comment on based on the info that we are given. We don't know everything behind the scenes. How could one expect this withdrawal to be anything but a clusterfuck given the groups involved. At least Biden had the balls to get us out.

This is kinda where I am. Biden got the big thing right. Given that the people on the scene have mismanaged and lied and been corrupt and misguided for 20 years, how did we expect that suddenly they were going to turn around an execute a flawless and exemplary withdrawal plan no matter how well directed it might have been from on high? Afghanistan is still a place where bribes and corruption and which warlord you have loyalties to are the things that get things done. That's not going to change into a place where an orderly bureaucracy and well-written plans are suddenly the way to get things done. Were there intelligence failures demonstrated in the withdrawal? Certainly. And those are the same intelligence failures that have been there for 20 years and longer than that for our country in other similar situations around the world. We're good at signals intelligence; we're not very good at human intelligence in Islamic societies. Biden wasn't going to snap his fingers and be able to change all of that.

It seems to me like the things that can be controlled from Washington (e.g., directive to destroy sensitive information at the embassy) are going fairly well, and the things that have to be controlled from Kabul (e.g., evacuating people) are not, and then there are a lot of things that are simply the product of either 20 years of American dysfunction or 20 centuries of Afghan society.

[DMT]

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs dispelling the fake news that intelligence foresaw the lightning quick collapse.

https://twitter.com/cspan/status/1428079641462333443

[Bene Futuis]

Imagine being this kind of pro-level hypocrite.

[Sour Masher]

I definitely agree with getting out. I also agree there would be no good ending. What I do disagree with is an ending that is this catastrophically bad. What is compounding my concern was a point DMT raised (also referenced by Matt Taibbi) that it certainly appears the Biden administration actually believed the assessments that indicated the Afghan army would last some significant period of time.

It does seem clear he did believe this, based on his own comments. While I agree this was always going to end badly, there is just no way to objectively spin this as anything but a catastrophe that includes all of the failures you have outlined. It is sad to see on many levels. It is also, of course, fair to say that this is merely the culmination of 20 years of mistakes and this was going to be very bad no matter what, and that as others have pointed out, at least Biden did, finally, what should have been done years ago, and in the long run, that decision, no matter how badly executed, will be a net postive. But yeah, it is also fair to say that Biden's image, for anyone who had it of him, of the guy who could handle something like this better than others could, because of his decades of experience and hard-earned wisdom and understanding, has been irrevocably damaged by this (and other things) recently.

[Bene Futuis]

It does seem clear he did believe this, based on his own comments. While I agree this was always going to end badly, there is just no way to objectively spin this as anything but a catastrophe that includes all of the failures you have outlined. It is sad to see on many levels. It is also, of course, fair to say that this is merely the culmination of 20 years of mistakes and this was going to be very bad no matter what, and that as others have pointed out, at least Biden did, finally, what should have been done years ago, and in the long run, that decision, no matter how badly executed, will be a net postive. But yeah, it is also fair to say that Biden's image, for anyone who had it of him, of the guy who could handle something like this better than others could, because of his decades of experience and hard-earned wisdom and understanding, has been irrevocably damaged by this (and other things) recently.

As the withdrawal continues to take shape, it is becoming clear that the actual spin was from those calling this a catastrophe. Honestly, this is one of the most impressive military logistical operations I can think of and all (hope I'm not jinxing it) without the loss of a single American life. I know the war hawks have been bleating themselves blue in the face, but it looks like by the end of the month we will exceed 100,000 people evacuated. That is a larger number than the entire Taliban army, for reference. Again, this effort was overwhelmingly supported by a large majority of our country, although to listen to the media and the Republicans you'd never know it.

[DMT]

As the withdrawal continues to take shape, it is becoming clear that the actual spin was from those calling this a catastrophe. Honestly, this is one of the most impressive military logistical operations I can think of and all (hope I'm not jinxing it) without the loss of a single American life. I know the war hawks have been bleating themselves blue in the face, but it looks like by the end of the month we will exceed 100,000 people evacuated. That is a larger number than the entire Taliban army, for reference. Again, this effort was overwhelmingly supported by a large majority of our country, although to listen to the media and the Republicans you'd never know it.

Exactly another bad faith argument coming from Republicans, who could give two shits about the Afghanis. But let's hear Henry Kissinger's expert analysis (thanks to the Economist).

What's pathetic is that outlets like CNN are piling on because they're filled with War Hawks themselves. It's nauseating.

[The Feral Slasher]

Exactly another bad faith argument coming from Republicans, who could give two shits about the Afghanis. But let's hear Henry Kissinger's expert analysis (thanks to the Economist).

What's pathetic is that outlets like CNN are piling on because they're filled with War Hawks themselves. It's nauseating.

Kinda strange how they have such little interest in understanding what happened the last 20 years and how all our money and efforts resulted in an Afghan force that couldn't hold the country for two weeks. In a sane world that would be the real story.

[Bene Futuis]

Exactly another bad faith argument coming from Republicans, who could give two shits about the Afghanis. But let's hear Henry Kissinger's expert analysis (thanks to the Economist).

What's pathetic is that outlets like CNN are piling on because they're filled with War Hawks themselves. It's nauseating.

The narrative has already shifted on the part of the right wingers - first it was evacuate 15,000 Americans and now it's 89,000 "key allies". I guaranfuckingtee it'll soon be that Biden is at fault for not evacuating every single Afghan who wanted to leave, even though that would number in the millions, and despite the extraordinarily antagonistic position the right holds against refugees, especially scary Muslim ones.

[Bene Futuis]

Semi-related Exhibit A: Kevin McCarthy, Republican minority leader, just gave the dire warning on Fox that 5,000 prisoners from Afghanistan have been released and are trying to enter the U.S. border, apparently referring to the 5,000 Taliban released by Donald Trump. McCarthy, of course, praised Trump's deal to release 5,000 Taliban prisoners when it happened. Standing for nothing, falling for everything.

[chancellor]

As the withdrawal continues to take shape, it is becoming clear that the actual spin was from those calling this a catastrophe. Honestly, this is one of the most impressive military logistical operations I can think of and all (hope I'm not jinxing it) without the loss of a single American life. I know the war hawks have been bleating themselves blue in the face, but it looks like by the end of the month we will exceed 100,000 people evacuated. That is a larger number than the entire Taliban army, for reference. Again, this effort was overwhelmingly supported by a large majority of our country, although to listen to the media and the Republicans you'd never know it.

This is like claiming the Titanic was a success because the lifeboats worked really well.

[Ken]

This is like claiming the Titanic was a success because the lifeboats worked really well.

Not really seeing the analogy. It's more like discussing whether the guy who was responsible for the lifeboats sunk the ship.

[The Feral Slasher]

This is like claiming the Titanic was a success because the lifeboats worked really well.

this doesn't seem right. Biden had no part in the Titanic sinking (unless you want to claim he did as part of Obama Admin). His only part was working the lifeboats. Can't blame him for hitting an iceberg.