The new COVID thread

[Moonlight J]

good op-ed piece from Adam Grant in NYT - https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/10/o...logy-fear.html

[umjewman]

I got boosted yesterday. So far, no real side effects. I'm tired, but I am attributing that to going to sleep too late last night and having two kids, not the booster.

Also, my kids got their second dose yesterday and my wife said they get candy as a reward. You damn right I made her buy me some candy as a reward as well.

[Sour Masher]

good op-ed piece from Adam Grant in NYT - https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/10/o...logy-fear.html

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Another factor he does not address, likely, because doing so would potentially undermine the message that everyone needs to do their part to stop the spread, as a service to society as a whole, is that many folks, younger folks, realize that the virus was never all that deadly to them. I know that is an uncomfortable thing to get into, because, again, many are selfish, and amplifying that message will only lead to more bad behavior, more spread, and more dead. But to me, it has always been a poor strategy to combat that reality, which the right fully embraced from the get go, with deflection. The argument for all to be as careful as possible and to get vaccinated has always been about that being a no brainer, because not doing so not only puts you at risk, it helps spread a disease that will absolutely kill other people. Who wants to be a part of that? Sadly, far too many.

But yeah, in the context of this article, the dulled fear response for many younger, healthy folks is amplified by the reality that they are far less likely to get really sick and die from any variant of COVID than older folks (95% of deaths in the US are people over 50, over 50% are people over 75, and the mortality rate for those under 18 is virtually non-existent, and lower than many other activities young people engage in). So, for such an individual, it is natural for them to be less afraid of a virus that affects them far less than it does others. But again, acknowledging the reality that this is a pandemic that is far more dangerous to the elderly and not very dangerous to most young people, is politically charged, and leads to bad and selfish behavior (speaking of, I had a student come into my office hours sick early this week who planned to get tested after, did, and told me yesterday had covid, but he said he wanted to come face-to-face to talk anyway...I didn't let him stay long once I realized he had symptoms, but he didn't really see the problem, since he was masked, but also, I am sure, because the virus is less of a big deal to him as a health 18 year old than it would be to me as a 45 year old).

[Sour Masher]

I got boosted yesterday. So far, no real side effects. I'm tired, but I am attributing that to going to sleep too late last night and having two kids, not the booster.

Also, my kids got their second dose yesterday and my wife said they get candy as a reward. You damn right I made her buy me some candy as a reward as well.

Lol, my 7 year old gets his secoond shot today. He had absolutely zero side effects from the first, and got a huge ice cream out of it, so he is actually looking forward to his booster.

[Ken]

Got it. So what did your doctor say?

Or are you suggesting you don't even listen to your own doctor?

Never heard back from either person who was suggesting aspiration. This wasn't rhetorical, it was a serious question that I'm interested in hearing about.

Did your doctor agree? Did they provide any recommendations or cautions?

I find it hard to believe that someone would be this interested in a topic and not even talk to their own doctor, so I have to assume there was a conversation. How did it go?

[revo]

An anti-vax Republican elections official in Wayne County, Michigan, who amplified Former Guy's BS about election fraud and initially didn't certify the votes before changing his tune, amazingly died from covid. Shocking. Not. But he does join the exclusive Herman Cain Award club.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/anti-vaxx-republican-official-refused-114105774.html

[Sour Masher]

Thanks for sharing johnny; this is still initial data and much of this is anecdotal, but this is indeed hopeful. Ideally, in a few weeks, we should drop all restrictions, let everyone get omicron, and then enjoy the spring. (I say that flippantly, obviously there are a lot of considerations wrt immunocompromised people, elderly, etc ... but it's still hopeful)

I'm still holding off for more data before celebrating. Most of the initial data is from young people and many had prior infection, so both of those factors skew the data. We will see how it plays out as more people in the populations most at risk get infected. Also, since Omicron mutated to get past vaccination and natural immunity, I don't see why more variants won't do that same going forward. It seems inevitable this will become endemic, like the common cold viruses, and flu viruses. Hopefully it will end up no more deadly than them, but it will be another thing we can get going forward. I don't know how long it will be until things go back to normal given that fact.

[johnnya24]

I'm still holding off for more data before celebrating. Most of the initial data is from young people and many had prior infection, so both of those factors skew the data. We will see how it plays out as more people in the populations most at risk get infected. Also, since Omicron mutated to get past vaccination and natural immunity, I don't see why more variants won't do that same going forward. It seems inevitable this will become endemic, like the common cold viruses, and flu viruses. Hopefully it will end up no more deadly than them, but it will be another thing we can get going forward. I don't know how long it will be until things go back to normal given that fact.

Most older people here have had the Oxford Vaccine + Moderna booster ... I'm pretty sure there's no data on that combo yet. But indications (guesstemations) are that it will be similar to the SA data. There is no data contradicting that as far as I know (yet).

That said, I feel there is a growing problem emerging that could be crushing, and the experts and authorities doesn't seem to even recognize it. The public/political narrative of this variant is almost identical to the previous 2/3 waves, when it's clear the underlying data is very different.

On the one hand, this variant seems insanely contagious, so many people will catch it fast (perhaps millions of consecutive infections in large countries). Even a low/very-low percentage of hospitalizations will be hard to handle at the best of times.

On the other hand, we have a system set up to cope-with the much more dangerous Alpha/Beta and Delta variants (but less contagious). The procedures we have in place to manage Delta could cripple our infrastructure if it's faced with an inundation. In the UK we have a ping system that, by law, demands you isolate if you have been in the vicinity of a positive patient. Given the predicted rate of infections for Omicron, our entire Health service will surely get pinged all at once? If there are no staff in our hospitals because of a farcical-ping-frenzy ... we are going to be f****d. I haven't heard anyone even mention the ping system?

This inundation is going to require fast, decisive, pro-active political leadership - and since modern democracies do-not and can-not provide this, I think we're f****d either way. Even if Omicron is effectively the end of the pandemic, and come March/April we have reached herd-immunity ... this is going to be FUGLY!

One last bungling political farce before normality hopefully returns. Shit show incoming boys.

[Bene Futuis]

The guy whose wife sued a hospital to compel them to administer ivermectin (court refused, private doctor got the okay to administer it) just died two days after being given the drug. https://www.ydr.com/story/news/2021/...ed/6493657001/

[Sour Masher]

The guy whose wife sued a hospital to compel them to administer ivermectin (court refused, private doctor got the okay to administer it) just died two days after being given the drug. https://www.ydr.com/story/news/2021/...ed/6493657001/

At that point, when your spouse is in a coma and on death's door, I can't blame someone from wanting to try anything, even if it is a complete Hail Mary. I mean, I wouldn't go to a psychic to talk to the dead or to find my missing kid, but I only feel sadness for those desperate enough to do so. And it is not like she made things worse. He died a week after being given the drug, but had been on a ventilator and in a comma since before Thanksgiving.

[GwynnInTheHall]

At that point, when your spouse is in a coma and on death's door, I can't blame someone from wanting to try anything, even if it is a complete Hail Mary. I mean, I wouldn't go to a psychic to talk to the dead or to find my missing kid, but I only feel sadness for those desperate enough to do so. And it is not like she made things worse. He died a week after being given the drug, but had been on a ventilator and in a comma since before Thanksgiving.

I understand your thinking--I just don't agree with it.


It's about trusting science, Ivermectin was never and is NOT a cure for Covid. Not an approved treatment either. It's not that far removed from using leaches and bleeding people to remove 'humors' from the body or even Thoughts and Prayer.

You cannot allow, nor encourage ignorance to dictate any course of action, no matter what the held 'belief' might be.

BTW isn't dead worse than in a Coma? The potential exists to come out of a coma, but when you're dead....

Finally, they made their own bed by not taking the disease seriously, actively advocating misinformation and pseudoscience.

I might make me a bad person, but I don't have an ounce of sympathy for situations like this.

[Bene Futuis]

At that point, when your spouse is in a coma and on death's door, I can't blame someone from wanting to try anything, even if it is a complete Hail Mary. I mean, I wouldn't go to a psychic to talk to the dead or to find my missing kid, but I only feel sadness for those desperate enough to do so. And it is not like she made things worse. He died a week after being given the drug, but had been on a ventilator and in a comma since before Thanksgiving.

Yeah, I don't think she learned the correct lesson here but I can certainly sympathize with the desperation she must have felt. The legal impact of these cases is extremely interesting, though: there was an Ohio court, since reversed, who ordered the administration of ivermectin to another COVID patient. There was another such case in Texas. I don't think any state supreme courts have taken up these cases.

[Sour Masher]

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Another factor he does not address, likely, because doing so would potentially undermine the message that everyone needs to do their part to stop the spread, as a service to society as a whole, is that many folks, younger folks, realize that the virus was never all that deadly to them. I know that is an uncomfortable thing to get into, because, again, many are selfish, and amplifying that message will only lead to more bad behavior, more spread, and more dead. But to me, it has always been a poor strategy to combat that reality, which the right fully embraced from the get go, with deflection. The argument for all to be as careful as possible and to get vaccinated has always been about that being a no brainer, because not doing so not only puts you at risk, it helps spread a disease that will absolutely kill other people. Who wants to be a part of that? Sadly, far too many.

But yeah, in the context of this article, the dulled fear response for many younger, healthy folks is amplified by the reality that they are far less likely to get really sick and die from any variant of COVID than older folks (95% of deaths in the US are people over 50, over 50% are people over 75, and the mortality rate for those under 18 is virtually non-existent, and lower than many other activities young people engage in). So, for such an individual, it is natural for them to be less afraid of a virus that affects them far less than it does others. But again, acknowledging the reality that this is a pandemic that is far more dangerous to the elderly and not very dangerous to most young people, is politically charged, and leads to bad and selfish behavior (speaking of, I had a student come into my office hours sick early this week who planned to get tested after, did, and told me yesterday had covid, but he said he wanted to come face-to-face to talk anyway...I didn't let him stay long once I realized he had symptoms, but he didn't really see the problem, since he was masked, but also, I am sure, because the virus is less of a big deal to him as a health 18 year old than it would be to me as a 45 year old).

This article jives with what I am seeing from many college aged kids: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-gen-z/620960/

[Bene Futuis]

Fauci on the omicron variant:

Early data about the Omicron coronavirus variant presents "a very strong argument for people getting their boosters," according to Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.

"Omicron is going to be a challenge because it spreads very rapidly, and the vaccines that we use — the regular two-dose mRNA — don't do very well against infection itself. But particularly if you get the boost, it is pretty good," Fauci told CNN.

In South Africa, where the variant was first identified, while there is "almost a vertical spike of infection," the country is not seeing severe hospitalizations, Fauci said.

"The real question is, is that an inherent diminution of virulence of the virus or is it because there are so many people in the population who have already been infected and now have residual post-infection immunity — which is not protecting them from getting infected, but is protecting them from getting severe disease?" Fauci said.

"Whatever it is, the disease seems to be less severe. Whether it's inherently less pathogenic as a virus or whether there's more protection in the community, we're just going to have to see when it comes in the United States. And for sure ... it is going to be dominant in the United States, given its doubling time," Fauci said.

[Mithrandir]

What do you tell people who claim that the vaccines are "experimental"? I don't know enough background about the manufacture of the vaccines to debate someone about the vaccines being experimental. i guess that i can Google it!

Thanks.