Miss Nevada - first transgender Miss USA Contestant

[GwynnInTheHall]

I don't even know what "woke" means and I imagine, based on how others seem to employ the word, that I'm one of the woke-est people around here. I don't see how it has anything to do with this subject, or frankly most other subjects, other than to try advance some sort of victimhood narrative --- "Oh, woe is me! The woke crowd is out to get me!" I just shuffle that kind of stuff in the same pile as the notion that white Christians are the most persecuted people in this country, or whatever similar nonsense the evangelists try to spout.

It's a term used by people who can't be bothered to be considerate and don't like being called out for being thoughtless.

nothing more or less.

[Bene Futuis]

I saw one episode of a ridiculous show about, uh, sports lawyers in the future or something. There were baseball players who were getting some sort of robotic eye implant - like some sort of super duper Lasik procedure - that gave you 20-10 vision or something and litigation ensued. Now what exactly that has to do with woke mobs besieging pageant judges to try to force their votes in favor of a transgender competitor, I'm not sure. But there it is anyway.

[Kevin Seitzer]

It's pretty common for parents to hold kids back in school so they're bigger/more developed than their classmates down the line--that's gaining an unfair physical advantage.

There are a lot more 19-year-olds in the MLB draft now than there were ten years ago.

I presume parents are starting their kids in kindergarten at age 6 instead of age 5, and that they do this for a variety of reasons, including athletic advantage.

[Ken]

There are a lot more 19-year-olds in the MLB draft now than there were ten years ago.

I presume parents are starting their kids in kindergarten at age 6 instead of age 5, and that they do this for a variety of reasons, including athletic advantage.

It seems like club sports have this problem handled much better than the school system. Signing up for a U16 team? OK, were you under 16 on this date? Yes? You are in. No? OK try U17.

[Kevin Seitzer]

It seems like club sports have this problem handled much better than the school system. Signing up for a U16 team? OK, were you under 16 on this date? Yes? You are in. No? OK try U17.

Yeah. MLB teams discount the performances of older players in the draft, but it certainly helps them in high school.

[Sour Masher]

An interesting read somewhat related to this thread: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...tsX?li=BBnbfcL

[chancellor]

I cannot imagine anyone would ever go through sexual transition for competitive advantage in a sport.

Not only do I believe some would given fame, money, and glory that come with an Olympic win in many countries, I also believe there are twisted parents who would absolutely do this to their children.

I could see some being coerced into this direction in extremely impoverished and corrupt areas, which would be tragic.

Most assuredly.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Not only do I believe some would given fame, money, and glory that come with an Olympic win in many countries, I also believe there are twisted parents who would absolutely do this to their children.



Most assuredly.

So the solution is to ban every trans athlete because a few might have transitioned for a ulterior motive?

[chancellor]

So the solution is to ban every trans athlete because a few might have transitioned for a ulterior motive?

No, I'd ban them because they're unfairly advantaged over the competition by a wide margin. The outgrowth of that, due to the benefits of being an Olympic champion, will be more transitioning with ulterior motives - whether driven by poverty, a dictatorial government, warped parents, or who knows how many other reasons I can't come up with right now.

One needs merely to look at the East German women's athletic teams of the '70s to understand what lengths governments may go to for Olympic propaganda victories.

[GwynnInTheHall]

No, I'd ban them because they're unfairly advantaged over the competition by a wide margin. The outgrowth of that, due to the benefits of being an Olympic champion, will be more transitioning with ulterior motives - whether driven by poverty, a dictatorial government, warped parents, or who knows how many other reasons I can't come up with right now.

One needs merely to look at the East German women's athletic teams of the '70s to understand what lengths governments may go to for Olympic propaganda victories.

So if no one is permitted to gain an unfair economic or celebrity advantage through altering what god gave you--we'd have to regulate actors, models, porn stars.....I mean we should keep our concern equitable now shouldn't we?

[Sour Masher]

So if no one is permitted to gain an unfair economic or celebrity advantage through altering what god gave you--we'd have to regulate actors, models, porn stars.....I mean we should keep our concern equitable now shouldn't we?

Those are different professions. In most sports, performance enhancing is highly regulated and people compete directly against each other, and in some of those sports, there is direct one-on-one combat. Porn stars don't typically punch each other in the face or choke each other out, like in MMA, wrestling, boxing...if they do, you can be sure Trevor Bauer will be watching it.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Those are different professions. In most sports, performance enhancing is highly regulated and people compete directly against each other, and in some of those sports, there is direct one-on-one combat. Porn stars don't typically punch each other in the face or choke each other out, like in MMA, wrestling, boxing...if they do, you can be sure Trevor Bauer will be watching it.

So, we've chosen to make Athletics the pinnacle of purity?

Why?

A career in Athletics is a choice as much as any other occupation.

Please explain why Sports alone must be monitored for fair play more than anything else.

[Sour Masher]

I cannot think of another time in the HT forums I was aligned with Chance. Since I am already down the rabbit hole of letting my conservative flag fly today, I might as well go all in. The idea that transwomen can engage in combat with biological women brings to mind another thing I have anecdotally noticed but have never been comfortable articulating. In my teaching career, I have witnessed two male on female assaults, in over 20 years of teaching (it does not happen often at the college level). Both times the assaulting party was a gay male and the female was previously a very good friend of theirs. Again, this is a very SSS, but I am aware more broadly that some gay men, in part because they have very good female friends and engage with them as gender peers, feel less societal stigma about getting physical with women. In both cases that I witnessed, it ended the male's college careers, and I was heart-broken, because I liked them both and I thought they both had bright futures. It seemed clear to me that they saw hitting a woman (one slap, one thrown stapler) as akin to how my straight male friends would see getting into a little scuffle with a friend--nothing worthy of assault charges, restraining orders, and suspension. It seemed clear that they did not distinguish their actions based on gender. They got into it with a friend, that is all, and I wonder if part of it was related to their own identities as feminine males (neither was trans at the time, but both were highly feminine).

Maybe there should not be a difference in these cases. Maybe assault is assault, not matter who does what to whom, but my gut reaction when I see someone born male hit someone born female is to be appalled to a greater degree than I would be if it was a male hitting a male. Maybe society moves away from that and embraces combat sports between those born male and those born female, but I don't think I would be able to get used to it. I initially tried to move beyond gender, to see if it was a size/strength thing, but it isn't, as I have watched old video of early MMA bouts where little guys fought guys twice their size and I did not feel the same way I would if I saw a born-male MMA fighter choke out a born female fighter, or mount her and punch her into submission.

[Sour Masher]

So, we've chosen to make Athletics the pinnacle of purity?

Why?

A career in Athletics is a choice as much as any other occupation.

Please explain why Sports alone must be monitored for fair play more than anything else.

I thought I did, and my post just above this one tries to further. There is a difference between professions that involve punching people in the face and other professions. I am surprised that even combat sports do not give you any pause.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I cannot think of another time in the HT forums I was aligned with Chance. Since I am already down the rabbit hole of letting my conservative flag fly today, I might as well go all in. The idea that transwomen can engage in combat with biological women brings to mind another thing I have anecdotally noticed but have never been comfortable articulating. In my teaching career, I have witnessed two male on female assaults, in over 20 years of teaching (it does not happen often at the college level). Both times the assaulting party was a gay male and the female was previously a very good friend of theirs. Again, this is a very SSS, but I am aware more broadly that some gay men, in part because they have very good female friends and engage with them as gender peers, feel less societal stigma about getting physical with women. In both cases that I witnessed, it ended the male's college careers, and I was heart-broken, because I liked them both and I thought they both had bright futures. It seemed clear to me that they saw hitting a woman (one slap, one thrown stapler) as akin to how my straight male friends would see getting into a little scuffle with a friend--nothing worthy of assault charges, restraining orders, and suspension. It seemed clear that they did not distinguish their actions based on gender. They got into it with a friend, that is all, and I wonder if part of it was related to their own identities as feminine males (neither was trans at the time, but both were highly feminine).

Maybe there should not be a difference in these cases. Maybe assault is assault, not matter who does what to whom, but my gut reaction when I see someone born male hit someone born female is to be appalled to a greater degree than I would be if it was a male hitting a male. Maybe society moves away from that and embraces combat sports between those born male and those born female, but I don't think I would be able to get used to it. I initially tried to move beyond gender, to see if it was a size/strength thing, but it isn't, as I have watched old video of early MMA bouts where little guys fought guys twice their size and I did not feel the same way I would if I saw a born-male MMA fighter choke out a born female fighter.

We, as a society, have been conditioned to this mentality, through multiple conduits. BUT as society advances, the distinction that men are superior to women in ANY aspect diminishes, it's natural for people of my age to want to be "chivalrous" but most women of today and beyond consider that concept antiquated. some are even offended by it, because it infers they are not equal to men and therefore need special treatment. Now is the time that you hold the door for people you care about regardless of gender, rather than act as a 'gentleman'

Your examples are spot on, two men who got into a shoving match would have been dealt with differently than the perceived man vs woman incidents you described.

We really need to move into the 21st century and abandon our patriarchal attitudes if we're ever going to achieve gender equity.