Miss Nevada - first transgender Miss USA Contestant

[Sour Masher]

Hmmm...no, actually I think you need to take science and results into account over intent. Science has indicated those born biologically male already start with athletic advantages over those born biologically female. and those advantages increase significantly should an individual born biologically male go through puberty as male. Recent athletic events have shown those differences to provide major performance advantages; I suspect we'll see even more results that provide additional data during the Summer Olympics.

And while I believe you're right about intent right now, that will change quickly, with the inflection point being the Summer Olympics this year. There's simply too much prestige and money tied to Olympic medals in many countries around the world.

I cannot imagine anyone would ever go through sexual transition for competitive advantage in a sport. I could see some being coerced into this direction in extremely impoverished and corrupt areas, which would be tragic.

For the record, I'm not outraged about anything related to this topic, and I am all for trans-rights in every way, except for physical competition against biological females. We try to regulate for advantages in every way we can, including age, weight class, hormone levels. Someone born male has much more bone density and muscle than someone born female, on average. When pushed to the extreme, the born-male body can have lower body fat and more muscle and denser bones than a woman can. This matters for many athletics competitions. It doesn't matter for just about anything else, including what bathroom you want to use or who you want to marry or what beauty contest you want to enter. It just matters for post-pubescent high-level combat and strength-dependent sports.

Of course, there are also numbers in play here in terms of what will happen in the Olympics. There are very few trans athletes while there are millions of born female who compete. So it is certainly possible, and probably probable, that there are those born women that are physically capable of competing with and beating the small number of those born male that transition. So, I would not expect trans dominance in most sports, unless what Chance is talking about blows up, which would be horrific. It would be depressing to read some poor soul's tell-all in 30 years about how they were forced into transition by shady sport powerbrokers.

[Mithrandir]

I cannot imagine anyone would ever go through sexual transition for competitive advantage in a sport. I could see some being coerced into this direction in extremely impoverished and corrupt areas, which would be tragic.

For the record, I'm not outraged about anything related to this topic, and I am all for trans-rights in every way, except for physical competition against biological females. We try to regulate for advantages in every way we can, including age, weight class, hormone levels. Someone born male has much more bone density and muscle than someone born female, on average. When pushed to the extreme, the born-male body can have lower body fat and more muscle and denser bones than a woman can. This matters for many athletics competitions.

Of course, there are also numbers in play here in terms of what will happen in the Olympics. There are very few trans athletes while there are millions of born female who compete. So it is certainly possible, and probably probable, that there are those born women that are physically capable of competing with and beating the small number of those born male that transition. So, I would not expect trans dominance in most sports, unless what Chance is talking about blows up, which would be horrific. It would be depressing to read some poor soul's tell-all in 30 years about how they were forced into transition by shady sport powerbrokers.

This is my stance too. Trying to type between helping customers can lead to some confusion in my posts.

[Ken]

I changed that as i was busy at work. So one can only be woke if they are 100% woke? Can I be sort of woke?

Being woke about everything is not good.

Personally I would not recommend making statements like "I would consider myself very woke". It seems clear from everything you have stated in this thread that you are against woke culture. If that's your stance, while I don't agree with it, at least you could rationalize it and stay consistent. Walking this odd line of claiming to be woke while also expressing opinions that are very opposed to the social justice platforms that "woke" represents comes across as attempting to avoid criticism of your stance. It's a "yeah but..." defensive argument that doesn't play out well.

Not a direct comparison here, but to just give you an understanding of how your statements come across, it's akin to the "I can't be a racist because I have a black friend" argument. Or even "I don't see color".

[GwynnInTheHall]

I cannot imagine anyone would ever go through sexual transition for competitive advantage in a sport. I could see some being coerced into this direction in extremely impoverished and corrupt areas, which would be tragic.

For the record, I'm not outraged about anything related to this topic, and I am all for trans-rights in every way, except for physical competition against biological females. We try to regulate for advantages in every way we can, including age, weight class, hormone levels. Someone born male has much more bone density and muscle than someone born female, on average. When pushed to the extreme, the born-male body can have lower body fat and more muscle and denser bones than a woman can. This matters for many athletics competitions.

Of course, there are also numbers in play here in terms of what will happen in the Olympics. There are very few trans athletes while there are millions of born female who compete. So it is certainly possible, and probably probable, that there are those born women that are physically capable of competing with and beating the small number of those born male that transition. So, I would not expect trans dominance in most sports, unless what Chance is talking about blows up, which would be horrific. It would be depressing to read some poor soul's tell-all in 30 years about how they were forced into transition by shady sport powerbrokers.

I guess my issue with any rules or laws restricting Trans participation based on the premise that it isn't Fair could never be Fair itself if it does not take into account all of Nature's proclivity for individuality in what is the human body. You just cannot ignore the wide variety of bodies and their genetic make up to focus on one simply because you consider their surgical changes a choice.

Hermaphrodites? Man or women and who gets to make that call?

Is ANY elective surgery to be considered if it gives a person an athletic advantage?

How about training? Holding kids back to give them an advantage over other athletes?

I'm saying there is no way to EQUITABLY say Trans women cannot compete with biological women without it being discriminatory.

FWIW I never said anything about Biological men not having an athletic advantage over Biological women.

I'm saying that if you are seeking Fairness, seek it in every aspect--that's all.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I changed that as i was busy at work. So one can only be woke if they are 100% woke? Can I be sort of woke?

Master Yoda said, "Do or do not. There is no try."

Being woke about everything is not good.

Wow, really? Please enlighten me regarding what you can skip in the Woke handbook because you know--it's not good.

[Sour Masher]

I guess my issue with any rules or laws restricting Trans participation based on the premise that it isn't Fair could never be Fair itself if it does not take into account all of Nature's proclivity for individuality in what is the human body. You just cannot ignore the wide variety of bodies and their genetic make up to focus on one simply because you consider their surgical changes a choice.

Hermaphrodites? Man or women and who gets to make that call?

Is ANY elective surgery to be considered if it gives a person an athletic advantage?

How about training? Holding kids back to give them an advantage over other athletes?

I'm saying there is no way to EQUITABLY say Trans women cannot compete with biological women without it being discriminatory.

FWIW I never said anything about Biological men not having an athletic advantage over Biological women.

I'm saying that if you are seeking Fairness, seek it in every aspect--that's all.

The examples you use require different responses. Some involve training and prep, which are separate issues than biology. And I cannot think of another elective surgery that gives someone a huge edge over everyone else in a sport, but yeah, if we got to the point where genetic mods allowed someone to increase their strength and speed, I'd say that those folks would have to be in a different class of athletes who should not be competing with unmodded people. As for intersex folks (I believe that is the preferred term), it would depend on their genes. I am nnot certain if it is just the y chromosome that differentiates a man physically from a woman and gives him all the characteristics of a man. If someone is intersex and can be tested to have the stats closer to the average female than to the average male (hormones, bone density, muscle mass), that person should compete with women.

I think most high-level athletics, especially where money is involved, does try to make things as fair as possible by regulating things like weight classes, drug use and hormone levels. For younger athletes, we have age ranges too. Of course some people within a class, especially a broad one like male and female, will have huge advantages over others. My point is not that we seek for every match to be even. It is to recognize that someone who transitions from male to female generally has very significant physical advantages over those born female. If we agree on that, I am not seeing why we disagree about the issue of whether those born male should be boxing those born women. If that is your stance, do you also think sports should not test for hormone levels, steroids, HGH, etc?

[GwynnInTheHall]

The examples you use require different responses. Some involve training and prep, which are separate issues than biology. Like I said, I think most high-level athletics, especially where money is involved, does try to make things as fair as possible by regulating things like weight classes, drug use and hormone levels. For younger athletes, we have age ranges too. Of course some people within a class, especially a broad one like male and female, will have huge advantages over others. My point is not that we seek for every match to be even. It is to recognize that someone who transitions from male to female generally has very significant physical advantages over those born female. If we agree on that, I am not seeing why we disagree about the issue of whether those born male should be boxing those born women. If that is your stance, do you also think sports should not test for hormone levels, steroids, HGH, etc?

I'm not debating if it's fair or unfair--only that there are several other instances which provide a competitive advantage, biologically, which are NOT regulated.

I believe the current trend to ban Trans athletes isn't actually about fairness but rather to make a political/social statement. because if it were ONLY about creating Fairness, they'd have already or as well as, made efforts in Fairness regulations to cover the instances I've specified.

[Sour Masher]

I wonder if there might be another solution to this issue long term. Maybe we will get to the point that there are enough trans-athletes that a trans class can be created. It seems unlikely at the local level, but nationally, there could be enough numbers to make it viable.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I wonder if there might be another solution to this issue long term. Maybe we will get to the point that there are enough trans-athletes that a trans class can be created. It seems unlikely at the local level, but nationally, there could be enough numbers to make it viable.

That would be great.

Arriving in a place where being Trans isn't a political/social issue should help in accomplishing something like you've suggested.

[Sour Masher]

I'm not debating if it's fair or unfair--only that there are several other instances which provide a competitive advantage, biologically, which are NOT regulated.

I believe the current trend to ban Trans athletes isn't actually about fairness but rather to make a political/social statement. because if it were ONLY about creating Fairness, they'd have already or as well as, made efforts in Fairness regulations to cover the instances I've specified.

What are the other instances? I am missing them. I do agree that it is very political for many making this argument, which is annoying, as it is not a political issue for me. For me it is about a level playing field primarily, and secondarily, the possibility that corrupt powers abuse these rules to force young people into transitioning when they do not want to. Which, I realize as I am typing, seems like just the sort of slippery slope extreme case that would get highlighted by those on the right. But I have to admit that it does seem possible.

[Sour Masher]

That would be great.

Arriving in a place where being Trans isn't a political/social issue should help in accomplishing something like you've suggested.

I see it as progress. Just a few years ago, being gay was the political football, but we are now at the point where so few think it is, the right has moved to trans. In time, trans will be more accepted too, and the debate will be over on a lot of issue. Except for sports, and the age at which transitioning should be allowed. Those two things are two of the very, very few issues I find myself more conservative than some on. There is evidence in both cases of potential harm by the most progressive positions.

[GwynnInTheHall]

What are the other instances? I am missing them. I do agree that it is very political for many making this argument, which is annoying, as it is not a political issue for me. For me it is about a level playing field primarily, and secondarily, the possibility that corrupt powers abuse these rules to force young people into transitioning when they do not want to. Which, I realize as I am typing, seems like just the sort of slippery slope extreme case that would get highlighted by those on the right. But I have to admit that it does seem possible.

Hermaphrodites? Man or women and who gets to make that call?

Is ANY elective surgery to be considered if it gives a person an athletic advantage?

How about training? Holding kids back to give them an advantage over other athletes?

[Sour Masher]

Hermaphrodites? Man or women and who gets to make that call?

Is ANY elective surgery to be considered if it gives a person an athletic advantage?

How about training? Holding kids back to give them an advantage over other athletes?

Training is not biology, and holding kids back, like making them fail 11th grade so they are oldest in HS class for baseball? I'm struggling to find examples. I addressed the elective surgery issues. When we get to the point where genetically modded or surgically enhanced people are faster and and stronger to a significant degree than non-enhanced people, then yes, they should be in a different class. What current surgeries are you referring to that improves people beyond what is possible without surgery?

My answer to the intersex issue (the preferred term these days) would be it depends on their biology. If scans and hormone tests can be done that places someone closer to one average or another, that is the gender you should compete with until the time when a different, non-binary class can be made.

[Bene Futuis]

I don't even know what "woke" means and I imagine, based on how others seem to employ the word, that I'm one of the woke-est people around here. I don't see how it has anything to do with this subject, or frankly most other subjects, other than to try advance some sort of victimhood narrative --- "Oh, woe is me! The woke crowd is out to get me!" I just shuffle that kind of stuff in the same pile as the notion that white Christians are the most persecuted people in this country, or whatever similar nonsense the evangelists try to spout.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Training is not biology, and holding kids back, like making them fail 11th grade so they are oldest in HS class for baseball? I'm struggling to find examples. I addressed the elective surgery issues. When we get to the point where genetically modded or surgically enhanced people are faster and and stronger to a significant degree than non-enhanced people, then yes, they should be in a different class. What current surgeries are you referring to that improves people beyond what is possible without surgery?

My answer to the intersex issue (the preferred term these days) would be it depends on their biology. If scans and hormone tests can be done that places someone closer to one average or another, that is the gender you should compete with until the time when a different, non-binary class can be made.

It's pretty common for parents to hold kids back in school so they're bigger/more developed than their classmates down the line--that's gaining an unfair physical advantage.

Socio-economic advantages impact training opportunists which can lead to an unfair physical advantage.

Isn't TJ surgery elective? If you went ONLY with what God intended, wouldn't you just be SOL after tearing your UCL? Some TJ guys come back Stronger than before--isn't that an advantage?

As for the intersex issue(thank you for the clarification), how can we set a hormone level as a standard and then when a Trans woman meets that standard still consider her a man? Should the Intersex individual's preference be considered or not?

I'm just saying, competition has never been perfectly fair prior to Trans athletes, why the outcry now?