Covid Vaccine thread

[nullnor]

in theology every struggle between mankind is a battle between Michael and Gabriel. and you can't defeat Michael as he was specifically bred for this war.

[nullnor]

capitalism and religion is incompatible when inequality runs amok. yet communism and religion is even more incompatible.

[Gregg]

maybe nullnor would get vaccinated for 100 bucks? would you sell your principles for 100 dollars?

No I would not sell my principles for $100 bucks.

What exactly is your principle that you would be breaking if you got vaccinated?

[nullnor]

good question. I don't know. I had to get a new phone last week and I told the guy there I think it has something to do with denial and holding off the future as long as you can.

[Sour Masher]

good question. I don't know. I had to get a new phone last week and I told the guy there I think it has something to do with denial and holding off the future as long as you can.

The data on Omicron so far is that folks with any level of vaccination are doing really well so far. The hospitalizations and deaths always lag the spread, and much of the early data skews to younger folks, so who knows if it will hold up, but almost all hospitalizations so far are from unvaccinated people. If you really have never had COVID yet (if you have, you have some protection already), I really have not seen anything from your posts so far that explain why you won't get jabbed. You are but one in a sea of billions. You getting jabbed will not be the reason something bad happens to others. The opposite is very likely true. And at your age, I really don't get worrying about long term effects. In the short term, it is a big win for your well being. Could you explain concisely why getting vaxxed would be bad for you as an individual? What exactly are you worried about, putting aside the larger concerns you have about mutations and the overall population. What specifically, just for you, makes being unvaxxed better than being vaxxed?

[nullnor]

The data on Omicron so far is that folks with any level of vaccination are doing really well so far. The hospitalizations and deaths always lag the spread, and much of the early data skews to younger folks, so who knows if it will hold up, but almost all hospitalizations so far are from unvaccinated people. If you really have never had COVID yet (if you have, you have some protection already), I really have not seen anything from your posts so far that explain why you won't get jabbed. You are but one in a sea of billions. You getting jabbed will not be the reason something bad happens to others. The opposite is very likely true. And at your age, I really don't get worrying about long term effects. In the short term, it is a big win for your well being. Could you explain concisely why getting vaxxed would be bad for you as an individual? What exactly are you worried about, putting aside the larger concerns you have about mutations and the overall population. What specifically, just for you, makes being unvaxxed better than being vaxxed?

i've always had a super immune system. i don't think i've ever missed a day of school for being sick in my life. from 5th grade to 8th i had perfect attendance. i even ask my mother recently if you ever remembered me being sick, and she paused and thought about it and replied 'never'. i've never had a cavity or broken a bone. no allergies of any kind. of course, i do actually remember the few times i was sick. once when i was like 7 i had the flu so bad i threw up. had a mild flu when i was in my 20's. and during the H1N1 i was sick, but that was also when my cat was in the ICU for a week and i visited her every day and was pretty worn out.

i am older now. i've drank a lot of the years. smoked. but i'll put my immune system against anyone's. i just don't get sick. i don't get colds, maybe a sniffle once in a while. i do remember having sore throats from colds in the past, but less than 5 times. to be honest, science should be studying my immune system. i was the perfect scenario. i was adopted so there are a lot of things i will never know. both my birth parents were in the Army. i am guessing i was a natural birth, which is supposedly better as when you first emerge into the world you are bathed in your mother's bacteria. i've always had pets, a dog. and i was physically always close to it, which challenged my immune system growing up. i am a messy person, always paying in dirt. i was always outside playing. even late,r i was a landscaper for 10 years. i didn't start developing bad habits until my 30's. i have a great genes, gut bacteria, micro biodome. i can eat anything and never gain weight. i can eat food that might be off, that many ppl tell me not to eat, and never get food poisoning. the nullnor challenge. it's MY body. it's a gift. after 53 years i know what it can do. it's my innate immune system. if John Hopkins studied me they'd say, holy shit, this guys innate immune system is as strong as a baby's. and then the phone would ring and they'd say, it's the White House, we want you to come down and meet the President. heh

so MY reasons for not getting vaccinated.
original antigenic sin. this vaccine only targets one epitope of the virus, the spike protein. it gets the job done but if the S epitope mutates, and that is the part most likely to mutate the most, efficacy goes down. you can reformulate the vaccine, but you have already taught your immune system. this also potentially means you can't get super immunity if you are vaccinated before you are naturally infected. not unless it wanes to the point that it forgets and can relearn the mutated epitope. OTOH, if you were naturally infected before you were vaccinated, you get super immunity. but only for a time, as your adaptive immune system may forget, especially if you are older. but truthfully, we don't really know how long your immune system is going to remember or not remember. but by getting boosted, this works by making your immune system think it is being reinfected. it makes it think it's still under threat and rallies the forces even stronger than before. but we've actually never done something exactly like this before. we don't know if your immune system is going to burn out. ..i mean there is so much to explain here dude, and i can't do it justice.

as i have stated before, there is a reason why they went with just targeting the spike protein. if you wanted to make a sterilizing vaccine (one that stopped transmission) in addition to stopping severity, you would've targeted the N nucleocapsid protein along with the S. but the N protein was where ADE antibody dependent enhancement showed up, in vitro, in all the previous attempts at making a coronavirus vaccine. but the good thing about ADE is it shows up much easier in vitro than vivo. which means there is something about it we don't fully understand. but it has showed up in vivo a few times. the coronavirus vaccine for FIP for cats, Dengue, RSV. but one of the things about natural infection for covid is antibodies target the full virus, all it's epitopes. this is why natural infection is better. BUT, it also targets the N, and that is where ADE will show up. so in theory, since vaccination only targets the S, it's the ppl with natural infection that are at most risk for it. yet ADE doesn't happen, in vivo, in natural infection. also, the N nucleocapsid protein is one of the most stable parts. it's one of the least likely parts to mutate. which makes it an attractive target for a sterilizing vaccine, if you want to risk. and they are going to risk it eventually. i am sure they are doing all kinds of experiments right now trying to make a safe N protein vaccination.

this is what really frightens me. i read the www.electoral-vote messages boards religiously. i never comment. it gives me an idea just how militant we can be. which way the wind is blowing. and it was my mistake thinking you guys would treat my views the same. you guys have been very kind to me. but for example, yesterday they were all saying they couldn't wait for the Army coronavirus pan vaccine to come out. and they hope it will come out tomorrow so they can take it. no long term safety trials. just that's it. if they say it's ok to take it, so be it. this is the most concerning thing to me. we've now given a green light. of course, i understand why the covid vaccines were rushed, and we are all essentially phase 3 test subjects. the benefits outweighed the risks. but they did actually know what they were doing. as i've stated before many times, targeting just the S was the best benefit to risk ratio even though it made the vaccine non-sterilizing. the vaccines are doing exactly what they were made to do, limit severity.

personally, in hindsight i think they should've just targeted the most vulnerable citizens, people over 50. and given everyone else a choice. i think telling everyone vaccinated they didn't have to mask up was a mistake. even now you have a Navy ship in dock because the ship got infected even with 100% vaccine uptake. presumably ppl can have high viral loads but no symptoms. which was one of the reasons not to advertise off label drugs that might work due to human behavior. so i may have been wrong when i said if you have no symptoms than you were never infected. anyways, if the vaccines were sterilizing, like polio or smallpox etc.. then there would almost be no argument.

i don't worry about a Mareks disease scenario. that seems to be a one-of-a-kind occurrence. i encourage you to look it up. and besides, the alternative in Mareks disease before the vaccine was just to let the infected chickens die and burn out. and in the human population with a disease, that's not an option. Mareks disease is more of an evolutionary wonder. there was no selective pressure to becomes more severe. yet, i suppose there never is any selective pressure for a pathogen to do that. but it had already gained maximum transmission. so i guess that's the evolutionary risk, a virus looks for maximum contagiousness first, and after, if the host doesn't die and burn out, it's free to mutate all it wants as long as it stays contagious. i suppose if you killed every chicken in the world and started over, you could eradicate Mareks disease since any wild reservoirs easily burn out.

sigh..so here we are. 95% of the world doesn't understand the difference between a sterilizing and non-sterilizing vaccine. i understand why the CDC said vaccinated ppl didn't have to wear masks anymore. i understand why they frowned upon off label drugs that have some efficacy. i understand why were don't command 3M to make a shit load of n95's and send 50 of them to every person in the country. or why we don't send 100's of rapid tests or even pulse oximeters. i even understand why doctors hands were tied hooked you up to a ventilator and didn't use anticoagulants or anti-inflammatory drugs.

i don't get vaccinated because i have a very strong innate immune system. and when you get vaccinated, you are training your adaptive immune system which will then take over and will be the first system to fight the virus, overriding the innate one. and unless that training wanes and is eventually able to be forgotten, it's a one shot deal; and is not exactly an optimal first choice for a virus that will mutate enough to eventually fake your adaptive system out. in ppl like me, if it's not broken, don't fix it. i also never go anywhere and always double mask up.

also, if i want to get into exotic theory, ppl that are only vaccinated and if they can't retrain their adaptive system for new variants, they will forever be the most vulnerable and the biggest risk for transmission in the future and dependent on boosters. so actually, i am being the safest and most civic citizen by making sure my body and immune system is in top shape for whatever future scenario throws at me. unlike vaccinated citizens, my eggs aren't in one basket. at 53 years old, i most certainly do worry about long term effects. but then i always worry about the future. and i'll still be worrying about it on the day before i die, because it's my thing.

ps. the old guy here got his third shot today. i am keeping an eye on him. he does pretty good with the shots. i remember after he got his 2nd shot, he dropped his pants and was making jokes taunting everyone in the yard. i also remember him either before the shot or after he went to the hospital after a cardiac event and his enzymes were high. i forget the chronology so, i am just quietly keeping watch this time. he loves the TV i got him for Christmas. 43' insignia from best buy, $220 special. thing was supposed to be new but it had scratches on the bottom of it. picture doesn't seem that great for broadcast channels (antennae, but i am hoping once he gets dish tv jan 6, he'll get some 4k high definition action going).

it's sort of disappointing that everyone thinks vaccination is the end all b-all answer. but it's par for the course. i am really frightened for the future. all the talk about making pan-vaccines with no long term safety trials. it's a brave new world. but who knows, maybe it will work.

[nullnor]

when they say most ppl in the hospital are unvaccinated, do they mean ppl completely unvaccinated, or do they mean ppl with only one shot, or two shots or ppl not fully vaccinated? i guess we'll find out once there are no more unvaccinated ppl.

[nullnor]

if Omicron primarily attacks the upper respiratory system, it's over. nature spared us. and it makes sense. if you look at it from as laboratory escape scenario.

H5N1 is a great example to compare things to. its primary focus is the lower respiratory system. this is why it can't sustain human to human transmission. and also why it has a 50% mortality rate. on a side note, not all mortality rates are equal. it really depends on who it is infecting. anyways, this is why we always look for human to human transmission first. and when bird flu happens, we just cull the entire flock. it's not worth the risk. and it's really hard to sustain human to human transmission when a virus is focused on the lower respiratory system. first of all, it usually kills the host and burns out. with H5N1 wild birds have learned to live with it pretty much. and that's how it gets transmitted to birds being farmed. so wild birds are its natural reservoir. but if those wild birds started dying, it would put selective pressure on it to mutate to become less pathological and more contagious. this would cause it to become more acquainted with their upper respiratory system and lose its virulence. the fact H5N1 is a lower respiratory disease is why it can't sustain human to human transmission.

now, COV2 was a disease that came out of nowhere already well adapted to human-to-human transmission, and human to animal transmission (Zooanthroponosis). this has NEVER happened, in the recorded history of mankind. it can happen, but it's unlikely. anything can happen. it takes forever for a virus to become well adapted. but when it does happen, it gives up its severity in favor of transmission. the first few jumps it makes it's more severe, but as it makes more jumps and gets adapted to its new host, it will favor mutations that allow it to be more transmissible. i use H5N1 as an example, i don't really know anything about diseases that include hemorrhagic fevers. those are severe no matter what. you could look into different strains of ebola. but that's not really an airborne respiratory disease.

but Omicron makes sense, presuming it's now an upper respiratory disease. virologists will be endlessly writing books about it in the future. there will be every kind of theory ppl can think of. it's a newly lab escaped variant (wrong). it jumped to an animal and recombined with another virus and jumped back to humans (wrong). it is the result of monoclonal antibody treatment (perhaps). it's the result of the virus mutating from the selective pressure of social distancing, masking, and vaccination (likely). and this is because it was given all the tools it needed from right out of the gate.

i don't really understand, it already had attained transmission. yet, it was a lower respiratory disease. it had the full Monty. but for some reason nature decided it was too powerful. and it shed its virulence in favor of even more transmission. it's a greedy virus. it had a choice to make, it could remain as a threat and go up against everything modern medicine could throw at it and risk extinction, all the while looking over at its common cold coronavirus friends and wondering if it too can achieve viral immortality by assimilating with its peers. and here's the kicker, it happens better during winter during cold season. just when you think things are going to be worse is when the greatest probability of it recombining with a common cold and losing severity occurs.

the human common colds are looking at this guy like a renegade rando. they are saying whoa dude, don't get the humans all riled up and make them break out the big guns and make a pan-vaccine that takes us all down. even better, we are going to combine with you and make you less severe to teach you a lesson about how the world works. because we've been around a while, and when you've been around a while, even though humans still call us a disease, we protect them from upstarts like you. because that's how nature works. what you think is your greatest liability, is really your greatest asset. we've been shaping life since the beginning. we built man and made him stronger. we shaped his civilization. we are man. we converted RNA to DNA and started life. sure, you may never be able to travel to another planet and establish colonies or time travel to a place you have no natural immunity. but it also means, no can else can do it either. ..and the cosmic dance continues.

[nullnor]

i don't think i am capable of explaining things concisely or being able to put aside larger concerns i have about the overall population. i guess i try to lead by example. but i am no less a fool. if you knew me in real life, you would say i am the least selfish person you might've met. and it has served me well recently. giving crack heads money at the campgrounds when they ripped me off, eventually one of them found me a place to stay for the last two years. and i got a cat too!

yet things didn't work out with the RV guy who seemingly bitched at me every day and tried to make me sorry for helping. put a roof over his head and directed him to goto school with me for HVAC, which he will eventually be great at. i even spent 4k on a sailboat and $1,200 on a mooring i never used, and $850 to store it for the winter, all to get his dog in the shelter i had researched previously and chosen. i forget what BOAT stands for but it's something like buy another thousand. but i can't put a price on everything that's happened. because the future hasn't been written yet. it's like somewhere up there the angels are fighting over my soul.

[nullnor]

you might've just as well asked me why i think my immune system and my faith is strong, because even though it has its peaks and valleys it's something i have experienced and know every day for 53 years.

[nullnor]

i'm still waiting for that future dystopian Netflix TV show where having a strong immune system is a crime.

[nullnor]

when in doubt i always try to reference Pink Floyd the Wall. except for when my GF informed me it was about a man's fear of women. i wonder what Pink Floyd song best describes the current situation. i actually can sing this song really well. that and the who behind blue eyes. i can really crank out Roger Daltrey ..let me wear your coat.

[nullnor]

but i am a more one of my turns kind of guy. it's such a great song. i sang it to the RV guy, he was amazed i remembered every lyric to Pink Foyd. the Wall is really my birthright. in high school it was my religion. it's a funny thing about school. it's more about conformity than learning. sorry. ironically the RV guy never understood the concept of self destruction.

[nullnor]

it's really pointless trying to explain anything to anyone these days. all anyone does is put things in perspective of pop culture or worse with no original thought behind it.

[nullnor]

it's funny, the two cats are named Mama and Brownie. the old guy named them. mama raised many of the kittens and brownie is brown. Brownie the calico is really interesting. she's in-between both worlds. she wants to do the right thing and be a social butterfly like mama. but she can't translate her survival skills from being semi-feral. thus, in this world, she's always afraid of doing the wrong thing, yet in her feral world she is supremely confident. and mama is really overbearing. she controls brownie. constantly always cleaning and reassuring her but still bossing her around. as a human, i have to keep in mind the dynamics of their world. both cats are totally awesome. for two years i've fed brownie and she's a killing machine. that's one cat i never have to worry about getting snatched. the thing is, once you bond with a feral animal, they are yours for life, and while mama has great survival skills, she's really up against the law of averages. and it really wouldn't be the same without both of them.

and here you thought you'd escape a story about how my cats are related to a current situation.