And so it has begun

[Sour Masher]

Sorry, I didn’t mean to be so blasé in my response but there have been “good people” on the wrong side of many conflicts. Confederates participated to their shame, in my opinion. That shame should never be celebrated. Edit: not saying you were celebrating them, just no love whatsoever for The Lost Cause from me.

I often wonder what I would have done as some poor hired hand or servant in the South or some low-income guy just trying to feed my family and stay alive in Germany after the Treaty of Versailles destroyed the economy in Germany. I'd like to believe I'd take a stand against the rise of tyranny and injustice no matter the personal cost to me, but I don't know.

I do not excuse those who deep down had the intelligence to know that their scapegoating was wrong and that their country was turning into an authoritarian state hell-bent on blaming and villainizing and torturing and killing the Other. And certainly I have nothing but contempt for those with power and authority who helped march the rest forward on the path of darkness. But it is hard for me to think of an out for many people living in those environments, when your biggest worry was your next meal and the safety and care of your family, when dissent could mean death not only for you, but for your loved ones. Edmund Burke's famous saying is true, of course, but when faced with an overwhelming tide of evil, when it is clear it has already won, and you are surrounded by it, like a sea of sludge, what is there to do but to keep afloat, do what you can while staying alive? Not everyone is cut out to be a revolutionary, especially those with kids they want to provide for and protect. And the sad state of critical thinking and human emotional intelligence is that it is awfully easy to get millions to turn toward accepting darkness for others, if it means a little more light for themselves--that is sadly human nature.

[chancellor]

As a military history major, I used to have this romantic notion of the Confederacy. I really only came to the realization that they were in fact traitors later on. Many fought not for slaves, but for their land and state. Slaveowners were rich, and they didn't fight. In that era, you rarely if ever traveled outside where you lived, so Virginia was god and country to Virginians, and they had no choice but to fight. I respect that.

That said, times have changed. Dramatically. And while Robert E. Lee is still a great general and was a patriot to his state, he was indeed a traitor. And he knew that. And so his military exploits should be celebrated, but only in military museums and in the history books. Other confederate generals who were more heinous should not be celebrated. Remembered for their military exploits, sure, but not celebrated.

I never had the romantic notion of the Confederacy, so I never had a problem understanding the southern military leadership committed treason.

On a completely different tangent from this thread, as I've read and studied more about Civil War battles and visited sites, the less impressed I am with Lee's generalship. In fact, I'd even argue that Lee wasn't the best Southern 4-star; Joe Johnston was.

[revo]

I never had the romantic notion of the Confederacy, so I never had a problem understanding the southern military leadership committed treason.

On a completely different tangent from this thread, as I've read and studied more about Civil War battles and visited sites, the less impressed I am with Lee's generalship. In fact, I'd even argue that Lee wasn't the best Southern 4-star; Joe Johnston was.

Yes, the leadership committed treason, that they knew. Most of the Confederate generals were West Pointers, so they understood what they were doing. But my argument, in this thread tangent, is that most generals and all the rank and file soldiers were just fighting for their state.

Even Lee once said: "I shall never bear arms against the Union, but it may be necessary for me to carry a musket in the defense of my native state, Virginia, in which case I shall not prove recreant to my duty." Even Johnston declared a duty to his state over the country.

[Bene Futuis]

Yes, the leadership committed treason, that they knew. Most of the Confederate generals were West Pointers, so they understood what they were doing. But my argument, in this thread tangent, is that most generals and all the rank and file soldiers were just fighting for their state.

Even Lee once said: "I shall never bear arms against the Union, but it may be necessary for me to carry a musket in the defense of my native state, Virginia, in which case I shall not prove recreant to my duty." Even Johnston declared a duty to his state over the country.

But couldn't literally the exact thing be said of, for example, the Nazis in Germany and Austria or the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia or any number of other, horrific causes and armies? And let's never forget that "fighting for their state" meant very explicitly fighting to preserve the right to enslave human beings. In fact, that states rights crap is a big focal point of The Lost Cause and is a lie. While certain rank and file soldiers may have believed that, it certainly wasn't the thrust of the war, as nearly every modern historian now agrees. I really do see what you're offering and generally I agree, essentially in the same manner Sour Masher states, but nothing can or should ever change the fact that whatever the soldiers may have believed, they were traitors fighting for the right to preserve slavery. Certainly nothing is noble about their cause and the monuments of such should be ground to dust. You don't see Nazi monuments in Germany out of some displaced notion of heritage.

To bring these posts slightly back to the thread, it was beyond shocking to me to see the flag of the traitorous losers flying inside our nation's Capitol during the insurrection. I was surprised at just how angry that made me feel.

[chancellor]

But couldn't literally the exact thing be said of, for example, the Nazis in Germany and Austria or the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia or any number of other, horrific causes and armies? And let's never forget that "fighting for their state" meant very explicitly fighting to preserve the right to enslave human beings. In fact, that states rights crap is a big focal point of The Lost Cause and is a lie. While certain rank and file soldiers may have believed that, it certainly wasn't the thrust of the war, as nearly every modern historian now agrees. I really do see what you're offering and generally I agree, essentially in the same manner Sour Masher states, but nothing can or should ever change the fact that whatever the soldiers may have believed, they were traitors fighting for the right to preserve slavery. Certainly nothing is noble about their cause and the monuments of such should be ground to dust. You don't see Nazi monuments in Germany out of some displaced notion of heritage.

Agree with most of what you've said here, though the last sentence is not accurate. There's at least one, and I think two, memorials to Erwin Rommel. The one I'm sure of is in Heidenheim. We can get into the argument of Rommel not truly being a Nazi, and the whole possible redemptive issue of going after Hitler at the end of his life, but there's hardly a German general who had more of an impact spreading the Nazi stain all over Europe than Rommel.

[Bene Futuis]

Agree with most of what you've said here, though the last sentence is not accurate. There's at least one, and I think two, memorials to Erwin Rommel. The one I'm sure of is in Heidenheim. We can get into the argument of Rommel not truly being a Nazi, and the whole possible redemptive issue of going after Hitler at the end of his life, but there's hardly a German general who had more of an impact spreading the Nazi stain all over Europe than Rommel.

Surprised to read this, but I stand corrected. But unlike in the south with the Confederates, German leadership was tried and prosecuted and destruction of Nazi iconography was widespread (and, I thought, complete....guess not). Still, Nazi ideology remained for at least a decade, if not more, with majorities of Germans believing that Hitler was a good leader but for the war and schools refusing to teach about the Holocaust. That gradually changed and by the early or mid 1970s the country came to grips with its horrific, recent past and the atrocities were taught in every school in the country. Certainly there has been no recent effort, to my knowledge, of trying to preserve Nazi heritage or the like.

[chancellor]

Surprised to read this, but I stand corrected. But unlike in the south with the Confederates, German leadership was tried and prosecuted and destruction of Nazi iconography was widespread (and, I thought, complete....guess not). Still, Nazi ideology remained for at least a decade, if not more, with majorities of Germans believing that Hitler was a good leader but for the war and schools refusing to teach about the Holocaust. That gradually changed and by the early or mid 1970s the country came to grips with its horrific, recent past and the atrocities were taught in every school in the country. Certainly there has been no recent effort, to my knowledge, of trying to preserve Nazi heritage or the like.

Agree completely on the Nazi heritage part. Also know about the change in the history teaching as I was in West Germany as an exchange student in the early 80s. Sadly, I've managed to forget about 95% of the marginal German I spoke back then.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Agree completely on the Nazi heritage part. Also know about the change in the history teaching as I was in West Germany as an exchange student in the early 80s. Sadly, I've managed to forget about 95% of the marginal German I spoke back then.

well it's been a while since you needed to say--Komm oft her?

[GwynnInTheHall]

To the subject at hand, wouldn't any US Citizen who took up arms against the Federal Govt today be considered treasonous no matter the justification?

[Bene Futuis]

Republicans, who think that investigating the January 6th insurrection is just a game, advanced the names of five House members to serve on the investigative committee that Democrats built alone since Republicans filibustered the effort to investigate the attempted coup against our government, presumably since there are multiple members complicit in the sedition. Among the five named were three who voted to overturn the results of the election because they are sycophantic bitches devoid of decency or patriotism. Nancy Pelosi wisely rejected the nomination of two of the three seditionists, which caused Speaker McCarthy to pull all the nominations. Republicans supposedly will attempt their own investigation, after rejecting the offer to participate in the actual investigation, even though they will lack subpoena power or legitimacy. I'm sure at least one Canadian amongst us will eagerly anticipate the outcome of the Republicans' own Cyber Ninja-esque accounting of the insurrection they helped foment.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Republicans, who think that investigating the January 6th insurrection is just a game, advanced the names of five House members to serve on the investigative committee that Democrats built alone since Republicans filibustered the effort to investigate the attempted coup against our government, presumably since there are multiple members complicit in the sedition. Among the five named were three who voted to overturn the results of the election because they are sycophantic bitches devoid of decency or patriotism. Nancy Pelosi wisely rejected the nomination of two of the three seditionists, which caused Speaker McCarthy to pull all the nominations. Republicans supposedly will attempt their own investigation, after rejecting the offer to participate in the actual investigation, even though they will lack subpoena power or legitimacy. I'm sure at least one Canadian amongst us will eagerly anticipate the outcome of the Republicans' own Cyber Ninja-esque accounting of the insurrection they helped foment.

I think we've discovered who Art is in Art of the Deal....

[The Feral Slasher]

Republicans, who think that investigating the January 6th insurrection is just a game, advanced the names of five House members to serve on the investigative committee that Democrats built alone since Republicans filibustered the effort to investigate the attempted coup against our government, presumably since there are multiple members complicit in the sedition. Among the five named were three who voted to overturn the results of the election because they are sycophantic bitches devoid of decency or patriotism. Nancy Pelosi wisely rejected the nomination of two of the three seditionists, which caused Speaker McCarthy to pull all the nominations. Republicans supposedly will attempt their own investigation, after rejecting the offer to participate in the actual investigation, even though they will lack subpoena power or legitimacy. I'm sure at least one Canadian amongst us will eagerly anticipate the outcome of the Republicans' own Cyber Ninja-esque accounting of the insurrection they helped foment.

This will not stand. This aggression against TranaGreg will not stand, man.

[Ken]

This will not stand. This aggression against TranaGreg will not stand, man.

That was stated very artfully.

[Bene Futuis]

This will not stand. This aggression against TranaGreg will not stand, man.

When Canada sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, like TranaGreg, I assume, are good people.

[nullnor]

so Rommel is a better replacement for Lee? that's why they put him in Africa, because they knew he was good but more moral. what was Rommel's strategic downfall anyways? they said he was a great military guy but sucked at logistics. which can be questioned because he was far away. I find it hard to believe Rommel would be bad at logistics. I would like to learn more about Rommel. he tried to assassinate Hitler? this was a turning point, right?