Possible War with Iran

[Teenwolf]

Canadians born in Iran have been harassed and held up at the border for up to 8 hours, just because of their birth country. This is insane. Not surprisingly, the US is full of shit, saying that there's no Iranian issue at the border, don't believe your eyes and ears.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Are you saying Soleimani was justified in his recent attacks because of what happened in 1953?

We can't change the past. But I would ask what would the proper response have been to the killings orchestrated by Soleimani?

I mentioned 1953, not to say that was the last time we mistreated the Iranians, but to point out that we had a 26-year head start on abusing them before they did anything to us. I don't know why you insist on pretending as if history started two weeks ago.

In 1953 we (and the Brits) deposed the democratically elected prime minister of Iran in a CIA-orchestrated coup because we viewed him as not sufficiently supportive of Western oil interests. We then proceeded to enforce an arrangement wherein American and British oil companies basically stole Iranian oil, with little of the profits going to Iran. We supported the Shah's brutally repressive regime for 26 years, while he imposed a police state, suppressed dissent, and imprisoned, tortured, and killed political opponents.

Then in 1979, when the Iranians finally overthrew the Shah, they not surprisingly blamed the US for his long and brutal reign. That doesn't justify the hostage taking at the embassy, but it certainly doesn't make that act worse than what we had done to them to that point.

In 1980, Saddam Hussein invaded Iran in order to capture their oil fields and obtain better access to the Persian Gulf. We supported Iraq in their war against Iran, including allowing Saddam to regularly use chemical weapons, including sulfur mustard and sarin nerve gas, against both Iranian troops and civilians. When Iraq began attacking Iran's tanker traffic, and Iran responded in kind, the US began protecting Iraq's tanker traffic with US Navy convoys but left Iran's tanker traffic unprotected from Iraqi attacks.

In 1988 the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian airliner over the Persian Gulf, killing the 290 people on board. Presumably this was an accident, but you can see why the Iranians might not feel that way about it.

This is far from all the history between our nations, but if you're not familiar with that background, it might harm your ability to understand the context of the current relationship between our two nations.

[Art Vandelay]

the most recent scurmages began with iran 'mourners' or 'protestors' attacking the U.S. embassy, standing on the United States flag, burning it.

[Kevin Seitzer]

the most recent scurmages began with iran 'mourners' or 'protestors' attacking the U.S. embassy, standing on the United States flag, burning it.

That's not correct. Go read up a little more on how things started.

[nullnor]

I haven't had time or access to read about everything and think but I'm ok with it. the way dictatorships work, they have to consolidate power. so if you cut the head off a snake etc.. I'm surprised no-one took him out before. not because they couldn't but choose not to. so what are the reasons they didn't. I guess Israel didn't because that might start an all out war. I don't see Iran retaliating in a obvious direct way seen from the average American civilian.

also, there were some positive things resulting the Iraq war and from removing Saddam. the Kurds are in better shape. even after we left the Syrian Kurds to fend for themselves vs Turkey, the Iraqi Kurds go on television after the drone strike and say America is there ally and they need us. the Kurds never play games, they don't switch sides. they're fucking reliable.

I don't know why you guys jumped on gregg's comments. this is why they call war FUBAR. at what point does anyone be able to make sense of anything. I definitely think the 1953 coup fucked everything up, and it was probably the impetus for it becoming a theocracy to which the mullahs had been trying to turn it into since 1900. but I also think at some point you have to just look at what's happening now. I used to have some trust that Iran was reasonable and even if they had nukes wouldn't use them. or that they didn't really mean 'wipe Israel off the map'. usually it's the Sunni's that are crazy. I can't believe Iran has been able to maintain a theocracy this long. I like the people of Iran but their leadership needs to go. during their last elections they openly fired on their own people.

I will say after we do shit like this, it's no mistake when Bush and Trump go on TV and use religious terms like 'virtuous military'. and then have some huge evangelical meeting the next day which would obvious cause Iraq or Iran to see it as a crusade. and lets admit when Trump went on TV and boasted and dared terrorists, Bush did it 100's of times, and it makes the situation worse.

you guys can jump all over me for my comments, it's cool. I am always open to being wrong and told why. it's the only way everyone learns.

[Ken]

That's not correct. Go read up a little more on how things started.

I'm interested in reading more about this, does anyone have some material I can read to catch up?

[nullnor]

I wonder if what happened in Iran in 1953 caused Eisenhower to better in the Suez Canal in 1956

[The Feral Slasher]

I haven't had time or access to read about everything and think but I'm ok with it. the way dictatorships work, they have to consolidate power. so if you cut the head off a snake etc.. I'm surprised no-one took him out before. not because they couldn't but choose not to. so what are the reasons they didn't. I guess Israel didn't because that might start an all out war. I don't see Iran retaliating in a obvious direct way seen from the average American civilian.

also, there were some positive things resulting the Iraq war and from removing Saddam. the Kurds are in better shape. even after we left the Syrian Kurds to fend for themselves vs Turkey, the Iraqi Kurds go on television after the drone strike and say America is there ally and they need us. the Kurds never play games, they don't switch sides. they're fucking reliable.

I don't know why you guys jumped on gregg's comments. this is why they call war FUBAR. at what point does anyone be able to make sense of anything. I definitely think the 1953 coup fucked everything up, and it was probably the impetus for it becoming a theocracy to which the mullahs had been trying to turn it into since 1900. but I also think at some point you have to just look at what's happening now. I used to have some trust that Iran was reasonable and even if they had nukes wouldn't use them. or that they didn't really mean 'wipe Israel off the map'. usually it's the Sunni's that are crazy. I can't believe Iran has been able to maintain a theocracy this long. I like the people of Iran but their leadership needs to go. during their last elections they openly fired on their own people.

I will say after we do shit like this, it's no mistake when Bush and Trump go on TV and use religious terms like 'virtuous military'. and then have some huge evangelical meeting the next day which would obvious cause Iraq or Iran to see it as a crusade. and lets admit when Trump went on TV and boasted and dared terrorists, Bush did it 100's of times, and it makes the situation worse.

you guys can jump all over me for my comments, it's cool. I am always open to being wrong and told why. it's the only way everyone learns.

Well that was mostly me. I just objected to the mischaracterization/over-simplification of the situation and making the U.S. out to be a victim without any understanding of the background or history. In retrospect I probably should have focused on what a poor strategic decision it was.

[nullnor]

Well that was mostly me. I just objected to the mischaracterization/over-simplification of the situation and making the U.S. out to be a victim without any understanding of the background or history. In retrospect I probably should have focused on what a poor strategic decision it was.

I value everyone's thoughts about what happened especially your thoughts. you're pretty good with this stuff. i don't have regular internet access so i am trying to catch up. if you guys have any good sites you like i am going to checkout kurdistan24.net and i usually try nationalinterest.org and when i get desperate for news i start messing looking for foreign affairs or was it foreign policy.org. not that they have any answers but it's a starting point.

[nullnor]

In 1980, Saddam Hussein invaded Iran in order to capture their oil fields and obtain better access to the Persian Gulf. We supported Iraq in their war against Iran, including allowing Saddam to regularly use chemical weapons, including sulfur mustard and sarin nerve gas, against both Iranian troops and civilians. When Iraq began attacking Iran's tanker traffic, and Iran responded in kind, the US began protecting Iraq's tanker traffic with US Navy convoys but left Iran's tanker traffic unprotected from Iraqi attacks.

I forgot about this one. I don't really know anything about the Iran/Iraq war. I watched a documentary and read a little. I was interested in how Iran's American made F14's did against Saddam's air force.

my semi-informed presumptuous understanding was that it was basically a proxy war between the western countries and Iran with Saddam and Iraq doing the fighting. I don't even know how much support Iran got from the usually players like Russia and China. I read at one point Iran had utterly destroyed Iraq's entire air force and afterward we supplied Saddam with 330 more planes.

so I thought, that might one of the reasons we invaded Iraq and handed it over to everyone. if Iran is going to make nukes we had to clean up the mess we left behind with Saddam and say sorry no hard feelings. if true, it didn't exactly work and here we are. it might even be alarming that after the threat of Saddam to Iran was removed, they didn't change.

[The Feral Slasher]

I value everyone's thoughts about what happened especially your thoughts. you're pretty good with this stuff. i don't have regular internet access so i am trying to catch up. if you guys have any good sites you like i am going to checkout kurdistan24.net and i usually try nationalinterest.org and when i get desperate for news i start messing looking for foreign affairs or was it foreign policy.org. not that they have any answers but it's a starting point.

Thanks, I'm not an expert or anything. I do enjoy history quite a bit, sounds like you might as well. I post some links if I think of any good ones.

[Ken]

Thanks, I'm not an expert or anything.

I mean, you have to be .... *something*

[The Feral Slasher]

I mean, you have to be .... *something*

I disagree

[nullnor]

astronauts are allowed to drink their own urine.

I want to be a country when I grow up. the way I figure it, if corporations can be people then I can be a country. and then i'll be allowed to have territories like US Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico and Guam...although I am not sure by saying they are an unincorporated territory that's someone's way of making sure I can't have them.

[nullnor]

I'm interested in reading more about this, does anyone have some material I can read to catch up?

I would probably wiki it. actually I think I watched a documentary on it or maybe it was about the Shah. I think he had a shiny throne of gold with emeralds in it. i'm serious, really!

I think all gold comes from outer space when 2 neutron stars crash together. and all the gold on earth would only fill up a few Olympic size swimming pools. and all the water in the swimming pools and on the planet is in fact billions of years old.