Possible War with Iran

[The Feral Slasher]

the most recent scurmages began with iran 'mourners' or 'protestors' attacking the U.S. embassy, standing on the United States flag, burning it.

oh well the burning the flag changes everything. Kill them all !

[Ken]

I would probably wiki it. actually I think I watched a documentary on it or maybe it was about the Shah. I think he had a shiny throne of gold with emeralds in it. i'm serious, really!

I'm talking about the recent events that have led up to this. I'm aware of the more distant history.

[Gregg]

I mentioned 1953, not to say that was the last time we mistreated the Iranians, but to point out that we had a 26-year head start on abusing them before they did anything to us. I don't know why you insist on pretending as if history started two weeks ago.

In 1953 we (and the Brits) deposed the democratically elected prime minister of Iran in a CIA-orchestrated coup because we viewed him as not sufficiently supportive of Western oil interests. We then proceeded to enforce an arrangement wherein American and British oil companies basically stole Iranian oil, with little of the profits going to Iran.

I am not pretending that history started two weeks ago.

Britain asked the US to help with the coup in 1952. At that time the Cold War was already 5 years old. To say we were a bit touchy about Communism would be an understatement. Part of the pitch was to prevent the communist world expansion. Did Britain want to maintain control of their oil yep.

The US had to choose between Britain or Iran. They chose Britain. Britain was also supporting the US in Korea.

For most Americans, the crisis in Iran became just part of the conflict between Communism and "the Free world" "A great sense of fear, as Soviet power had already subdued Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. Communist governments were imposed on Bulgaria and Romania in 1946, Hungary and Poland in 1947, and Czechoslovakia in 1948. Albania and Yugoslavia also turned to communism. Greek communists made a violent bid for power. Soviet soldiers blocked land routes to Berlin for sixteen months. In 1949, the Soviet Union successfully tested a nuclear weapon. That same year, pro-Western forces in China lost their Civil War to communists led by Mao Zedong. From Washington, it seemed that enemies were on the march everywhere.

Add Bulgaria, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Mongolia, Poland, North Vietnam, and Romania as "strong client states" of the Soviet Union, and Afghanistan, Egypt, Guinea, North Korea, Somalia, and Syria as moderately important client states. Mali and South Yemen were classified as weak client states of the Soviet Union. Some scary stuff back then.

in 1956 Nikita Khrushchev stated his infamous "We will bury you" speech.

In the 1950's was the control of oil important to controlling the world? Seems like it.

I don't think the 1953 good guys vs bad guys was about greed and wealth. It was about power. Freedom vs. Tyranny.

[The Feral Slasher]

I am not pretending that history started two weeks ago.

Britain asked the US to help with the coup in 1952. At that time the Cold War was already 5 years old. To say we were a bit touchy about Communism would be an understatement. Part of the pitch was to prevent the communist world expansion. Did Britain want to maintain control of their oil yep.

The US had to choose between Britain or Iran. They chose Britain. Britain was also supporting the US in Korea.

For most Americans, the crisis in Iran became just part of the conflict between Communism and "the Free world" "A great sense of fear, as Soviet power had already subdued Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. Communist governments were imposed on Bulgaria and Romania in 1946, Hungary and Poland in 1947, and Czechoslovakia in 1948. Albania and Yugoslavia also turned to communism. Greek communists made a violent bid for power. Soviet soldiers blocked land routes to Berlin for sixteen months. In 1949, the Soviet Union successfully tested a nuclear weapon. That same year, pro-Western forces in China lost their Civil War to communists led by Mao Zedong. From Washington, it seemed that enemies were on the march everywhere.

Add Bulgaria, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Mongolia, Poland, North Vietnam, and Romania as "strong client states" of the Soviet Union, and Afghanistan, Egypt, Guinea, North Korea, Somalia, and Syria as moderately important client states. Mali and South Yemen were classified as weak client states of the Soviet Union. Some scary stuff back then.

in 1956 Nikita Khrushchev stated his infamous "We will bury you" speech.

In the 1950's was the control of oil important to controlling the world? Seems like it.

I don't think the 1953 good guys vs bad guys was about greed and wealth. It was about power. Freedom vs. Tyranny.

The part in bold at least is straight out of wikipedia, you might want to provide a link or something

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

According to Kinzer, for most Americans, the crisis in Iran became just part of the conflict between Communism and "the Free world".[18]:84 "A great sense of fear, particularly the fear of encirclement, shaped American consciousness during this period. ... Soviet power had already subdued Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. Communist governments were imposed on Bulgaria and Romania in 1946, Hungary and Poland in 1947, and Czechoslovakia in 1948. Albania and Yugoslavia also turned to communism. Greek communists made a violent bid for power. Soviet soldiers blocked land routes to Berlin for sixteen months. In 1949, the Soviet Union successfully tested a nuclear weapon. That same year, pro-Western forces in China lost their Civil War to communists led by Mao Zedong. From Washington, it seemed that enemies were on the march everywhere.

also out of wikipedia anothor portion of "your" writing:

Gasiorowski identified Bulgaria, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Mongolia, Poland, North Vietnam, and Romania as "strong client states" of the Soviet Union, and Afghanistan, Egypt, Guinea, North Korea, Somalia, and Syria as moderately important client states. Mali and South Yemen were classified as weak client states of the Soviet Union.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I'm talking about the recent events that have led up to this. I'm aware of the more distant history.

In a nutshell:

1 An American contractor was killed in a rocket attack Trump/Admin blamed on an Iranian Terror group. Iran denied any association or responsibility for the strike.

2 Trump/Admin killed 27 Iranians on the Syrian border in response, a move denounced by Many in the Iraqi Govt ( including the Iraqi PM) because of many reasons, the most common being the strike was a unilateral choice rather than a coordinated/approved attack.

3. After a funeral procession to mourn the fallen 27, some of those marching went to the Embassy and started protesting.

4 Trump/Admin declared the protests a "Terrorist Attack" and used that as justification to target/kill/assassinate General Soleimani and Iraqi Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis (Top guy in the PMF an Iranian aligned militia group (collection of militias)

5 Pending shit show.

[Gregg]

The part in bold at least is straight out of wikipedia, you might want to provide a link or something

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

According to Kinzer, for most Americans, the crisis in Iran became just part of the conflict between Communism and "the Free world".[18]:84 "A great sense of fear, particularly the fear of encirclement, shaped American consciousness during this period. ... Soviet power had already subdued Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. Communist governments were imposed on Bulgaria and Romania in 1946, Hungary and Poland in 1947, and Czechoslovakia in 1948. Albania and Yugoslavia also turned to communism. Greek communists made a violent bid for power. Soviet soldiers blocked land routes to Berlin for sixteen months. In 1949, the Soviet Union successfully tested a nuclear weapon. That same year, pro-Western forces in China lost their Civil War to communists led by Mao Zedong. From Washington, it seemed that enemies were on the march everywhere.

Yes I did. Although I am not understanding why that is important. I was using that portion of the article to explain why the fear existed and why the US might have agreed to the coup.

The fear I got to learn about in my early days. We had atomic bomb drills and later in the early sixties (I think) home bomb shelters were an option.

I do not think the events from 1953 should be viewed through today's greed.

Did you understand my post?

[The Feral Slasher]

Yes I did. Although I am not understanding why that is important. I was using that portion of the article to explain why the fear existed and why the US might have agreed to the coup.

The fear I got to learn about in my early days. We had atomic bomb drills and later in the early sixties (I think) home bomb shelters were an option.

I do not think the events from 1953 should be viewed through today's greed.

Did you understand my post?

You should not be taking credit for other's work, they wrote those words so you should acknowledge that it is theirs instead of passing it off as your own.

As far as understanding your post I don't have any desire to revisit the coup that happened in 1953, I just think that ignoring the history that has existed between Iran and the US and acting like we were minding our own business when Iran suddenly decided to attack us is a not very accurate picture. Which is exactly the way you presented it.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I am not pretending that history started two weeks ago.

Britain asked the US to help with the coup in 1952. At that time the Cold War was already 5 years old. To say we were a bit touchy about Communism would be an understatement. Part of the pitch was to prevent the communist world expansion. Did Britain want to maintain control of their oil yep.

The US had to choose between Britain or Iran. They chose Britain. Britain was also supporting the US in Korea.

For most Americans, the crisis in Iran became just part of the conflict between Communism and "the Free world" "A great sense of fear, as Soviet power had already subdued Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. Communist governments were imposed on Bulgaria and Romania in 1946, Hungary and Poland in 1947, and Czechoslovakia in 1948. Albania and Yugoslavia also turned to communism. Greek communists made a violent bid for power. Soviet soldiers blocked land routes to Berlin for sixteen months. In 1949, the Soviet Union successfully tested a nuclear weapon. That same year, pro-Western forces in China lost their Civil War to communists led by Mao Zedong. From Washington, it seemed that enemies were on the march everywhere.

Add Bulgaria, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Mongolia, Poland, North Vietnam, and Romania as "strong client states" of the Soviet Union, and Afghanistan, Egypt, Guinea, North Korea, Somalia, and Syria as moderately important client states. Mali and South Yemen were classified as weak client states of the Soviet Union. Some scary stuff back then.

in 1956 Nikita Khrushchev stated his infamous "We will bury you" speech.

In the 1950's was the control of oil important to controlling the world? Seems like it.

I don't think the 1953 good guys vs bad guys was about greed and wealth. It was about power. Freedom vs. Tyranny.

This sentiment always makes me shrug.

Here's the issue Gregg--I get it, you don't want to share your opinion regarding this because you know it'll be unpopular with some in here--But you're not alone, MANY Americans thing anything done in the name of Freedom or national Security is acceptable--be it moral or not. Yes I'm saying you think it's OK to kill anyone the leadership of this country brands an enemy. And you don't care how. Like you said--War is Ugly. That's OK too--



Freedom and Tyranny--is all about PERSPECTIVE. I see Trump any this administration as Tyrants, the BAD guys. If they indeed target civilian cultural sites--they should be tried for War Crimes. I LOVE this country, but a human life has no additional value because it's nationality in American. You may disagree, but that's the fight we're waging in this country today--The Nationalists Vs Everyone Else.

Back to my assertion that you're OK with what happened to the general, It's a reasonable assertion in that--you're not a Troll and only played they--I respectfully decline to answer your question card--once you saw how this was all running out.

Again, that's OK. hell Kohm was a big Democrat honk in here but was hawky as hell, he'd be right there with you on this as is Art.

Freedom vs Tyranny--It's tired rhetoric used to stir emotion in instanced where employing nuance would be better served.

[Gregg]

This sentiment always makes me shrug.

Here's the issue Gregg--I get it, you don't want to share your opinion regarding this because you know it'll be unpopular with some in here--But you're not alone, MANY Americans thing anything done in the name of Freedom or national Security is acceptable--be it moral or not. Yes I'm saying you think it's OK to kill anyone the leadership of this country brands an enemy. And you don't care how. Like you said--War is Ugly. That's OK too--



Freedom and Tyranny--is all about PERSPECTIVE. I see Trump any this administration as Tyrants, the BAD guys. If they indeed target civilian cultural sites--they should be tried for War Crimes. I LOVE this country, but a human life has no additional value because it's nationality in American. You may disagree, but that's the fight we're waging in this country today--The Nationalists Vs Everyone Else.

Back to my assertion that you're OK with what happened to the general, It's a reasonable assertion in that--you're not a Troll and only played they--I respectfully decline to answer your question card--once you saw how this was all running out.

Again, that's OK. hell Kohm was a big Democrat honk in here but was hawky as hell, he'd be right there with you on this as is Art.

Freedom vs Tyranny--It's tired rhetoric used to stir emotion in instanced where employing nuance would be better served.

Thank you for your input.

My response was about the way the 1953 coup was presented. It does not justify the actions of Soleimani today. And I was not using it to justify taking him out.

[The Feral Slasher]

Thank you for your input.

My response was about the way the 1953 coup was presented. It does not justify the actions of Soleimani today. And I was not using it to justify taking him out.

And just so we are clear which of Soleimani's actions are you referring to specifically ?

[Gregg]

You should not be taking credit for other's work, they wrote those words so you should acknowledge that it is theirs instead of passing it off as your own.

As far as understanding your post I don't have any desire to revisit the coup that happened in 1953, I just think that ignoring the history that has existed between Iran and the US and acting like we were minding our own business when Iran suddenly decided to attack us is a not very accurate picture. Which is exactly the way you presented it.

My humblest apologies. That was not my intent. I will make sure to do better in the future.

I am not the one who brought up 1953 in the first place.

[The Feral Slasher]

I am not the one who brought up 1953 in the first place.

No, others brought it up along with other events that happened since that time to point out how your claim of "unprovoked" ignored the long history that exists. Nobody was suggesting that we have a long discussion about the coup itself.

[Gregg]

And just so we are clear which of Soleimani's actions are you referring to specifically ?

You know the ones where you think he was a great freedom fighter striking back at the greedy bastards.

[Gregg]

No, others brought it up along with other events that happened since that time to point out how your claim of "unprovoked" ignored the long history that exists. Nobody was suggesting that we have a long discussion about the coup itself.

Oh, I understand. You win.

[The Feral Slasher]

You know the ones where you think he was a great freedom fighter striking back at the greedy bastards.

I knew you didn't even have the slightest idea what he did to deserve death, we killed him so he deserved it.. maybe go look on wikipedia and you will have a better idea.