Koch Brothers, 1 down, 1 to go

[Teenwolf]

It's okay when someone on the left makes a joke about a homophobic joke. :smh:

I meant that he's a plastic lifeless mannequin, but I understand how you could mistake it as homophobic. My apologies.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I was literally the first person to reply to this thread, and the others who replied quoted me, so to suggest that you weren't responding to me is odd, considering you stated "lot's" of people (there were 3 other than TW that had replied at that time). But sure, if you want to act like it wasn't responding to me you can play that game!



Fair enough



I think it's dangerous to equate political disagreement with crime and genocide. Global warming is a very divisive, political topic. Sadly too many people are dumb enough to be on the wrong side, I'm right there with you. But equating that with intentional genocide and abuse of children downplays the evil that the former two involve.



I hope to never be in that position.



This was a passive aggressive way of replying to my post without actually replying to it, in my opinion, but fair enough.

First ken, I have never passive aggressived anything when it comes to you--You and I have been pretty up front with our feelings regarding one another. If we have something to say to each other directly i trust that we'll make that known.

I see the Koch's manipulation of our political system and damaging on a grand scale, that. to me is even worse than their advancing anti climate change rhetoric. it has damaged our society, our nation and is one of the reasons we have the current political and social climate we're suffering through.

InTheCorn, nots and Art had all responded as well, plus TW had rebutted. Your post was absolutely not my focus, but was included in the overall tone of responses. Add to that the crusade JJ has been on to civilize the forum and My response was general, not specific.

So again, I trust should we have something to say to each other, we will and in no uncertain terms.

I'm glad Epstein is dead, Koch too. If that makes me a monster, I'll own it.

[GwynnInTheHall]

It's okay when someone on the left makes a joke about a homophobic joke. :smh:

Ken (the barbi doll) is gay?

[Sour Masher]

I'll chime in to agree with those saying this thread, and the reactions of many on the left, to Koch's death is distasteful and not something I would engage in. I'm with Bernie Sanders on this, who chided his crowd for cheering his death. I think the impetus to take joy in the death of others needs to be examined carefully. Some soul searching needs to be done there.

That said, I certainly understand those that do not mourn his passing and do not shy away from pointing out the harm he has done during his life. But that can be done with less ghoulish glee. I also think, despite the tremendous harm Koch has done, comparing him to Epstein or even Hitler reveals that the Koch brothers have clearly been successfully vilified on the left as much as Soros has been on the right. Both seem to have be turned into larger than life boogeymen. I do not know what was in Koch's heart and mind as he advocated for policies that have caused tremendous harm to our planet, but I would hope that behind them was a sincere belief that climate change concerns were overblown, the the political manipulations he engage in was par for the course and part of the rules of play of our system, and that he believed he had done as much good as harm in the world.

IF that is the case, I think a better comparison to Koch would be George HW Bush. I've stated before, I think Bush made decisions that he thought was right as president. Those decisions, especially bringing us into the Iraq war, make him one of the worst presidents ever. As much as a loathe Trump, one can argue that he has not yet nor will he cause as much harm as Bush did while in office. All that said, I do not hate Bush. I think he is a decent human being who also happened to be a horrendous president. I would not take joy in his death, despite the harm he caused. I certainly would not compare him to a predator like Epstein, even though, again, he caused a lot of harm--more than Koch, maybe?

[Teenwolf]

I'll chime in to agree with those saying this thread, and the reactions of many on the left, to Koch's death is distasteful and not something I would engage in. I'm with Bernie Sanders on this, who chided his crowd for cheering his death. I think the impetus to take joy in the death of others needs to be examined carefully. Some soul searching needs to be done there.

That said, I certainly understand those that do not mourn his passing and do not shy away from pointing out the harm he has done during his life. But that can be done with less ghoulish glee. I also think, despite the tremendous harm Koch has done, comparing him to Epstein or even Hitler reveals that the Koch brothers have clearly been successfully vilified on the left as much as Soros has been on the right. Both seem to have be turned into larger than life boogeymen. I do not know what was in Koch's heart and mind as he advocated for policies that have caused tremendous harm to our planet, but I would hope that behind them was a sincere belief that climate change concerns were overblown, the the political manipulations he engage in was par for the course and part of the rules of play of our system, and that he believed he had done as much good as harm in the world.

IF that is the case, I think a better comparison to Koch would be George HW Bush. I've stated before, I think Bush made decisions that he thought was right as president. Those decisions, especially bringing us into the Iraq war, make him one of the worst presidents ever. As much as a loathe Trump, one can argue that he has not yet nor will he cause as much harm as Bush did while in office. All that said, I do not hate Bush. I think he is a decent human being who also happened to be a horrendous president. I would not take joy in his death, despite the harm he caused. i certainly would not compare him to a predator like Epstein, even though, again, he caused a lot of harm--more than Koch, maybe?

What type of elaborate delusional thinking is required to believe that the institution you set up 30 years ago to deny climate change hadnt harmed the planet when you live to see the increasing disaster? I mean, it seeks clear to me that they knew exactly what they were/are enacting. This type of delusion will eventually rationalize massacres in service of profit making. Who do you think supported Bolsonaro encouraging Brazilian farmers to burn down the Amazon?

I dont care to dissect their rationale for destroying the planet, just as I dont care to dissect the rationale in the brains of child abusers... it just doesnt matter. We are judged for our actions, regardless of our mental delusions that lead us there. The way it should be.

[nots]

I'll chime in to agree with those saying this thread, and the reactions of many on the left, to Koch's death is distasteful and not something I would engage in. I'm with Bernie Sanders on this, who chided his crowd for cheering his death. I think the impetus to take joy in the death of others needs to be examined carefully. Some soul searching needs to be done there.

That said, I certainly understand those that do not mourn his passing and do not shy away from pointing out the harm he has done during his life. But that can be done with less ghoulish glee. I also think, despite the tremendous harm Koch has done, comparing him to Epstein or even Hitler reveals that the Koch brothers have clearly been successfully vilified on the left as much as Soros has been on the right. Both seem to have be turned into larger than life boogeymen. I do not know what was in Koch's heart and mind as he advocated for policies that have caused tremendous harm to our planet, but I would hope that behind them was a sincere belief that climate change concerns were overblown, the the political manipulations he engage in was par for the course and part of the rules of play of our system, and that he believed he had done as much good as harm in the world.

IF that is the case, I think a better comparison to Koch would be George HW Bush. I've stated before, I think Bush made decisions that he thought was right as president. Those decisions, especially bringing us into the Iraq war, make him one of the worst presidents ever. As much as a loathe Trump, one can argue that he has not yet nor will he cause as much harm as Bush did while in office. All that said, I do not hate Bush. I think he is a decent human being who also happened to be a horrendous president. I would not take joy in his death, despite the harm he caused. I certainly would not compare him to a predator like Epstein, even though, again, he caused a lot of harm--more than Koch, maybe?

Very good post, Masher

[Sour Masher]

What type of elaborate delusional thinking is required to believe that the institution you set up 30 years ago to deny climate change hadnt harmed the planet when you live to see the increasing disaster? I mean, it seeks clear to me that they knew exactly what they were/are enacting. This type of delusion will eventually rationalize massacres in service of profit making. Who do you think supported Bolsonaro encouraging Brazilian farmers to burn down the Amazon?

I dont care to dissect their rationale for destroying the planet, just as I dont care to dissect the rationale in the brains of child abusers... it just doesnt matter. We are judged for our actions, regardless of our mental delusions that lead us there. The way it should be.

Fair point...maybe I am delusional in thinking he many have been delusional, as a defense mechanism. I know there are so many climate change deniers and those who don't think we are doing much real harm that if I thought all of those people didn't really believe that but only cared about their own, selfish, short term gains, I think I'd go insane with anger. So I choose to believe many of them really do see things totally differently than I do.

ETA: What did you think of Bernie's distaste at cheers from his crowd about Koch's death? I think he must have looked out on that and thought, do I really want to be in front of a crowd cheering someone's death? I think I'd have done the same thing he did in response, regardless of my feeling about Koch.

[Ken]

Ken... the facts of climate change were coming into popular scientific discussion in the late 80's, and Koch brothers set up institutions and think tanks, etc. to purposefully deny and obfuscate the facts, in order to make money, yes, but it's not a "political disagreement" that we (you, me, every sane observer) believe climate change exists, and they simply don't. They exist specifically to DENY scientific truth!

Look at you, calling me sane.

If we want to move over from the realm of screaming opinions and outrage, Christopher Leonard wrote the book "Kochland: The Secret History of Koch Industries and Corporate Power in America", literally about the terrible things that Koch's company did. I think we all would agree is much more of a subject matter expert on it than any of us. He stated that Koch truly believed in what he was doing and the company honestly believed that global warming was a hoax. They dug in completely and poured money into supporting their side ( which again was the wrong side ), and the result is harm

But I think it is dangerous to equate being wrong with being willfully harmful.

Every political discussion is based on disagreement and everyone thinks the other person or side is wrong. But suggesting that the opposition are willfully harmful is a projection of your own ideas on someone else. It suggests that you agree on the fundamental topic (in this case that global warming is real). I don't know that is the case, especially with so many who are still ignorant on the topic.

[In the Corn]

Ken (the barbi doll) is gay?

This was trope back in the '80's. You called someone who was less masculine a Ken-Doll, with the emphasis on the doll.

[Ken]

What the hell are you talking about? Me stating that child molesters are the worst kind of people imaginable, and equating them to anyone else is downplaying how despicable they are and just the comparison is vile and disgusting... offends you? What the actual hell?

That's gross Teenwolf. Absolutely disgusting.

I sent you a PM on this topic Teenwolf. It's vile that you would suggest that somehow I offended you by calling child molesters despicable.

[Ken]

This was trope back in the '80's. You called someone who was less masculine a Ken-Doll, with the emphasis on the doll.

Absolutely, I was called that as a kid numerous times as a kid in the 80s. After about age 10 kids had the maturity to move on. It's interesting that that kind of "insult" would be used.

[Ken]

I know there are so many climate change deniers and those who don't think we are doing much real harm that if I thought all of those people didn't really believe that but only cared about their own, selfish, short term gains, I think I'd go insane with anger. So I choose to believe many of them really do see things totally differently than I do.

There are a lot of dumb people who will not listen to anything their party disagrees with. You aren't delusional.

[Ken]

I meant that he's a plastic lifeless mannequin

What does that even mean? And why are you attacking me and talking about my kids? Even if the hot button forum is a wild west, is this who you are? Why would you pull that garbage?

[Sour Masher]

Look at you, calling me sane.

If we want to move over from the realm of screaming opinions and outrage, Christopher Leonard wrote the book "Kochland: The Secret History of Koch Industries and Corporate Power in America", literally about the terrible things that Koch's company did. I think we all would agree is much more of a subject matter expert on it than any of us. He stated that Koch truly believed in what he was doing and the company honestly believed that global warming was a hoax. They dug in completely and poured money into supporting their side ( which again was the wrong side ), and the result is harm

But I think it is dangerous to equate being wrong with being willfully harmful.

Every political discussion is based on disagreement and everyone thinks the other person or side is wrong. But suggesting that the opposition are willfully harmful is a projection of your own ideas on someone else. It suggests that you agree on the fundamental topic (in this case that global warming is real). I don't know that is the case, especially with so many who are still ignorant on the topic.

Thanks for this post, Ken. I remembered reading somewhere that Koch was, at least at some point, a true believer in global warming being overblown, in contrast to some of the cigarette exes who knew full well the harm they caused. I agree that there is a difference between being wrong and harmful and willfully harmful. To me, at least. I know some, my wife included, disagree. It is an interesting abstract debate.

[Teenwolf]

Fair point...maybe I am delusional in thinking he many have been delusional, as a defense mechanism. I know there are so many climate change deniers and those who don't think we are doing much real harm that if I thought all of those people didn't really believe that but only cared about their own, selfish, short term gains, I think I'd go insane with anger. So I choose to believe many of them really do see things totally differently than I do.

ETA: What did you think of Bernie's distaste at cheers from his crowd about Koch's death? I think he must have looked out on that and thought, do I really want to be in front of a crowd cheering someone's death? I think I'd have done the same thing he did in response, regardless of my feeling about Koch.

Right, I agree that most of the brainwashed masses who deny climate change aren't subject to the type of hatred or vilification I reserve for the Koch's themselves. They're merely gullible, but the Koch's are fully cognizant.

Bernie Sanders absolutely contains an abundance more love and compassion for the human race than I embody, and I think it's both a good look for him and the right position.

I would rarely advocate Bernie do what I would do, although I hope he takes the gloves off in debate #3 with uncle Joe.