Election 2020

[DMT]

So it's perfectly ok for Sanders supporters like yourself to slam every other candidate, but similar efforts against Sanders are either a conspiracy or a guaranteed losing strategy?

I too am a Sanders supporter.

[Teenwolf]

So it's perfectly ok for Sanders supporters like yourself to slam every other candidate, but similar efforts against Sanders are either a conspiracy or a guaranteed losing strategy?

I too am a Sanders supporter.

I don't know why my posting is upsetting you so much these days, but you've consistently attacked my content.

I don't hide my biases, but I'm giving valid sources, like the NYT. WTF is your problem with me?

[DMT]

I don't know why my posting is upsetting you so much these days, but you've consistently attacked my content.

I don't hide my biases, but I'm giving valid sources, like the NYT. WTF is your problem with me?

I don't have a problem with you. My problem is with your line of attack against everyone else.

[Teenwolf]

Did you miss my post about Ryan Grim criticizing Sanders on The Intercept? I'm critiquing the candidates because I believe that's what the primaries are about, and I'm critiquing all candidates, including Sanders. If you want to play pattycakes with Primary candidates and end up with a neoliberal corporate shill, go for it. We disagree on tactics, fine.

If you want to insist that identity politics are the most important thing, go for it. I think its dumb and misguided to think voters will vote based on the colour of a candidate's skin or their gender rather than the background of that particular minority candidate. I think its dumb and misguided to protect candidates from their own records. I think its dumb and misguided to support candidates who espouse vague philosophy without supporting policy. If you disagree with me, fine. But I'm not commiting any great sin by dissecting the candidate's records. I would appreciate a bit of space, as I'm not attacking anybody here for their views, I'm merely expressing my own.

[Sour Masher]

Did you miss my post about Ryan Grim criticizing Sanders on The Intercept? I'm critiquing the candidates because I believe that's what the primaries are about, and I'm critiquing all candidates, including Sanders. If you want to play pattycakes with Primary candidates and end up with a neoliberal corporate shill, go for it. We disagree on tactics, fine.

If you want to insist that identity politics are the most important thing, go for it. I think its dumb and misguided to think voters will vote based on the colour of a candidate's skin or their gender rather than the background of that particular minority candidate. I think its dumb and misguided to protect candidates from their own records. I think its dumb and misguided to support candidates who espouse vague philosophy without supporting policy. If you disagree with me, fine. But I'm not commiting any great sin by dissecting the candidate's records. I would appreciate a bit of space, as I'm not attacking anybody here for their views, I'm merely expressing my own.

I don't think DMT is expressing consternation about your critiques of other candidates or your support for Sanders. I think it is about the narrative you push that any critiques about Sanders shows a grand conspiracy against him, even when you cite mainstream sources that point out that, obviously, the centrist wing of the party is scared of Sanders and is against him. That just makes sense, doesn't it, and if there was a grand media conspiracy, why would mainstream media even give voice to the fact that clearly centrist want Sanders to lose? Progressives want a progressive to win. Centrist want a centrist to win. centrist tend to have more corporate backing and money, so there is a clear advantage there which I understand can be frustrating for progressives, because you see all this support for them with all the big money pushing them. It isn't fair, because our campaign finance system isn't fair. But it is what it is.

I also think it is dangerous to buy into every attack piece and critique for every candidate who isn't Sanders. You seem to have written off everyone already as complete garbage except Sanders. If Sanders had a heart attack tomorrow, the way you talk about every other candidate, we might as well just not vote, because they are all trash water candidates, no better than Trump, because they all fail the litmus test on M4A and of not being Sanders. Out of curiosity, who would be your second choice, if Sanders wasn't in the race? I'm particularly surprised by how critical you've been of Warren. Her progressive bona fides are pretty solid, it seems to me.

It just surprises me how passionate and sometimes vitriolic you and some other Sanders supporters are, and how defensive they get over any and all criticism of Sanders. I don't typically hear supporters of other candidates speak in such absolutes, like it has to be their choice or no one. For some Sanders supporters, it is Sanders or bust. It is black and white. No other candidate has any positives going for them at all. I think most Dems who aren't all in on Sanders have things they like about all the candidates, and while they have preferences, at the end of the day, they would be happy with any of them over Trump. I think those folks cringe at the level of vitriol some Sanders supporters feel for all other candidates. Because it raises fears that if any other candidate manages to beat Sanders in the primaries, those fervent Sanders supporters will not rally behind the winner against Trump.

[In the Corn]

I don't have a problem with you. My problem is with your line of attack against everyone else.

Circular Firing Squad...

[B-Fly]

I don't think DMT is expressing consternation about your critiques of other candidates or your support for Sanders. I think it is about the narrative you push that any critiques about Sanders shows a grand conspiracy against him, even when you cite mainstream sources that point out that, obviously, the centrist wing of the party is scared of Sanders and is against him. That just makes sense, doesn't it, and if there was a grand media conspiracy, why would mainstream media even give voice to the fact that clearly centrist want Sanders to lose? Progressives want a progressive to win. Centrist want a centrist to win. centrist tend to have more corporate backing and money, so there is a clear advantage there which I understand can be frustrating for progressives, because you see all this support for them with all the big money pushing them. It isn't fair, because our campaign finance system isn't fair. But it is what it is.

I also think it is dangerous to buy into every attack piece and critique for every candidate who isn't Sanders. You seem to have written off everyone already as complete garbage except Sanders. If Sanders had a heart attack tomorrow, the way you talk about every other candidate, we might as well just not vote, because they are all trash water candidates, no better than Trump, because they all fail the litmus test on M4A and of not being Sanders. Out of curiosity, who would be your second choice, if Sanders wasn't in the race? I'm particularly surprised by how critical you've been of Warren. Her progressive bona fides are pretty solid, it seems to me.

It just surprises me how passionate and sometimes vitriolic you and some other Sanders supporters are, and how defensive they get over any and all criticism of Sanders. I don't typically hear supporters of other candidates speak in such absolutes, like it has to be their choice or no one. For some Sanders supporters, it is Sanders or bust. It is black and white. No other candidate has any positives going for them at all. I think most Dems who aren't all in on Sanders have things they like about all the candidates, and while they have preferences, at the end of the day, they would be happy with any of them over Trump. I think those folks cringe at the level of vitriol some Sanders supporters feel for all other candidates. Because it raises fears that if any other candidate manages to beat Sanders in the primaries, those fervent Sanders supporters will not rally behind the winner against Trump.

I think this is on point with regard to many Sanders supporters, which is frustrating, because there's a lot to like about Sanders, but it's hard not to have a negative reaction to this, which can spill into the feelings people have about Sanders himself. I've been told outright by some Sanders supporters that they absolutely will refuse to support or vote for any other Democrat, and that's part of their argument/strategy for why if we want to have any hope of beating Trump, we have no choice but to pick their guy. It's like many Sanders supporters want Democratic Party voters to feel like there's a gun to their head and if they don't pick Sanders that Bernie's supporters will pull the trigger. It's honestly very upsetting.

[DMT]

I don't think DMT is expressing consternation about your critiques of other candidates or your support for Sanders. I think it is about the narrative you push that any critiques about Sanders shows a grand conspiracy against him, even when you cite mainstream sources that point out that, obviously, the centrist wing of the party is scared of Sanders and is against him. That just makes sense, doesn't it, and if there was a grand media conspiracy, why would mainstream media even give voice to the fact that clearly centrist want Sanders to lose? Progressives want a progressive to win. Centrist want a centrist to win. centrist tend to have more corporate backing and money, so there is a clear advantage there which I understand can be frustrating for progressives, because you see all this support for them with all the big money pushing them. It isn't fair, because our campaign finance system isn't fair. But it is what it is.

I also think it is dangerous to buy into every attack piece and critique for every candidate who isn't Sanders. You seem to have written off everyone already as complete garbage except Sanders. If Sanders had a heart attack tomorrow, the way you talk about every other candidate, we might as well just not vote, because they are all trash water candidates, no better than Trump, because they all fail the litmus test on M4A and of not being Sanders. Out of curiosity, who would be your second choice, if Sanders wasn't in the race? I'm particularly surprised by how critical you've been of Warren. Her progressive bona fides are pretty solid, it seems to me.

It just surprises me how passionate and sometimes vitriolic you and some other Sanders supporters are, and how defensive they get over any and all criticism of Sanders. I don't typically hear supporters of other candidates speak in such absolutes, like it has to be their choice or no one. For some Sanders supporters, it is Sanders or bust. It is black and white. No other candidate has any positives going for them at all. I think most Dems who aren't all in on Sanders have things they like about all the candidates, and while they have preferences, at the end of the day, they would be happy with any of them over Trump. I think those folks cringe at the level of vitriol some Sanders supporters feel for all other candidates. Because it raises fears that if any other candidate manages to beat Sanders in the primaries, those fervent Sanders supporters will not rally behind the winner against Trump.

[DMT]

I think this is on point with regard to many Sanders supporters, which is frustrating, because there's a lot to like about Sanders, but it's hard not to have a negative reaction to this, which can spill into the feelings people have about Sanders himself. I've been told outright by some Sanders supporters that they absolutely will refuse to support or vote for any other Democrat, and that's part of their argument/strategy for why if we want to have any hope of beating Trump, we have no choice but to pick their guy. It's like many Sanders supporters want Democratic Party voters to feel like there's a gun to their head and if they don't pick Sanders that Bernie's supporters will pull the trigger. It's honestly very upsetting.

Yep... I have a friend who is this way and she refused to vote for Clinton and I have no idea if she'll support anyone else other than Sanders because I stopped talking to her about politics.

[DMT]

Plus I've been on record as a Sanders supporter from day one but any time I defend another candidate I'm accused of being naive or corporatist or some other such nonsense.

Again I'll make a comparison to another poster who used similar tactics in 2016. He recently chimed in after a long hiatus just to remind us that Clinton supporters are worse than Trump. Shockingly no one responded.

[TS Garp]

I don't think DMT is expressing consternation about your critiques of other candidates or your support for Sanders. I think it is about the narrative you push that any critiques about Sanders shows a grand conspiracy against him, even when you cite mainstream sources that point out that, obviously, the centrist wing of the party is scared of Sanders and is against him. That just makes sense, doesn't it, and if there was a grand media conspiracy, why would mainstream media even give voice to the fact that clearly centrist want Sanders to lose? Progressives want a progressive to win. Centrist want a centrist to win. centrist tend to have more corporate backing and money, so there is a clear advantage there which I understand can be frustrating for progressives, because you see all this support for them with all the big money pushing them. It isn't fair, because our campaign finance system isn't fair. But it is what it is.

I also think it is dangerous to buy into every attack piece and critique for every candidate who isn't Sanders. You seem to have written off everyone already as complete garbage except Sanders. If Sanders had a heart attack tomorrow, the way you talk about every other candidate, we might as well just not vote, because they are all trash water candidates, no better than Trump, because they all fail the litmus test on M4A and of not being Sanders. Out of curiosity, who would be your second choice, if Sanders wasn't in the race? I'm particularly surprised by how critical you've been of Warren. Her progressive bona fides are pretty solid, it seems to me.

It just surprises me how passionate and sometimes vitriolic you and some other Sanders supporters are, and how defensive they get over any and all criticism of Sanders. I don't typically hear supporters of other candidates speak in such absolutes, like it has to be their choice or no one. For some Sanders supporters, it is Sanders or bust. It is black and white. No other candidate has any positives going for them at all. I think most Dems who aren't all in on Sanders have things they like about all the candidates, and while they have preferences, at the end of the day, they would be happy with any of them over Trump. I think those folks cringe at the level of vitriol some Sanders supporters feel for all other candidates. Because it raises fears that if any other candidate manages to beat Sanders in the primaries, those fervent Sanders supporters will not rally behind the winner against Trump.

[Teenwolf]

Yep... I have a friend who is this way and she refused to vote for Clinton and I have no idea if she'll support anyone else other than Sanders because I stopped talking to her about politics.

Personal anecdotes, seriously? "I have a friend who..." is such a poor debate tactic, and you guys fall back on it constantly.

"defections from a primary to general election are common. More voters went from Hillary Clinton to John McCain in 2008 than went from Sanders to Trump in 2016; about 13 percent of Trump’s 2016 voters also voted for Barack Obama in 2012."

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/24/16194086/bernie-trump-voters-study

[DMT]

Personal anecdotes, seriously? "I have a friend who..." is such a poor debate tactic, and you guys fall back on it constantly.



https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...p-voters-study

I'm fully aware of that data and I've never made the claim here that Sanders supporters are the reason Clinton lost. Sharing personal anecdotes on a message board is common practice and you've shared many when they help make your point.

[DMT]

I'm fully aware of that data and I've never made the claim here that Sanders supporters are the reason Clinton lost. Sharing personal anecdotes on a message board is common practice and you've shared many when they help make your point.

My point being not that she is the reason Clinton lost, but her ridiculous decision to not vote for Clinton--even after Sanders told his supporters to do so--means I no longer care to hear about her views on politics.

[Teenwolf]

Plus I've been on record as a Sanders supporter from day one but any time I defend another candidate I'm accused of being naive or corporatist or some other such nonsense.

Again I'll make a comparison to another poster who used similar tactics in 2016. He recently chimed in after a long hiatus just to remind us that Clinton supporters are worse than Trump. Shockingly no one responded.

It's not defending other candidates to say that I'm smearing them, you simply refuse to debate the points I raise because you want to show yourself as morally superior to me by avoiding criticism of any Democrats. I think choosing a candidate with blinders on (Bernie included!) is both idiotic and pathetic. But let's just agree to disagree and move the fuck on. It's really beating a dead horse to bring this up weekly.

Nobody even responded when I criticized Bernie, you all just ignore it and continue to claim I'm biased. Fake... fucking... news. Reply or don't, but be honest. I'm critical across the board, to the degree that I feel is appropriate.

Oh, and my 2nd choice is Tulsi Gabbard and 3rd choice is Warren, and I've been highly critical of both. It's a significant dropoff from Bernie, but if he had a heart attack, I would deal with reality and choose the best of what's available. I still fail to see the benefits of puff pieces about Buttigieg's husband or whatever bullshit MSM is pumping, but if you all wish to line up at the trough, be my guest.