Election 2020

[Sour Masher]

Reflecting on old elections I have voted in got me thinking of a thought experiment I'd love folks on the right to participate in:

1. The last four presidents have included two Democrats and two Republicans. Do you believe, on the whole, that the presidencies of Bill Clinton and Barack Obama have been better or worse for our country than the combined presidency's of George W Bush and Donald Trump? Despite all the flaws of the Dems, and the personal, moral flaws of Clinton, to me it is a landslide victory for the Dems over the disastrous presidencies of the two Republicans. I really don't see the argument the other way, if everything is tallied up objectively.
2. Second question--do you believe that if the opposing candidate had won each of the elections since Clinton that the country would be better or worse off? That is, do you think we would have been better or worse off if HW Bush and Bob Doyle had been in charge over Clinton? Do you believe we would have been better or worse off under Gore vs W Bush? McCain and Romney vs Obama? HRC vs Trump? (From my perspective, I was voting against the Republican in these cases, except for the Obama elections--in both of those cases, I was voting for Obama, and the candidates he faced, by my estimation, happened to be the two best candidates Republicans had put up in my voting lifetime, but they just happened to face the best Democratic candidate in my lifetime, at least in terms of likability, coolness, and overall appeal to voters).

Team colors aside, that is enough elections to make a fair sample size for which side is better at running this nation of ours. Personally, I cannot fathom a full tally that would score the Republicans better than the Democrats over the last 28 years, at being president, at least.

[Sour Masher]

In 2008, I think I waited approximately 3 hours in NYC. In 2016, in the burbs, it was about 15 minutes.

Dayum. I don't get why this has to be the case, but it seems to be the case--urban voting takes longer. Of course, there are more people, but can't that also mean more polling places and more people at those polling places to help? Whatever the case, one reason why Republicans do not like mail-in voting is they know that is will allow more Democrats to vote more easily. It is hard to argue that point when many Republicans readily admit to it.

[revo]

1. The last four presidents have included two Democrats and two Republicans. Do you believe, on the whole, that the presidencies of Bill Clinton and Barack Obama have been better or worse for our country than the combined presidency's of George W Bush and Donald Trump? Despite all the flaws of the Dems, and the personal, moral flaws of Clinton, to me it is a landslide victory for the Dems over the disastrous presidencies of the two Republicans. I really don't see the argument the other way, if everything is tallied up objectively.

It's just not even close. As much as I liked Bush as a person, his presidency was wracked by a personal vendetta that didn't need to happen. The stock market, now the GOP barometer of success, had the infamous "lost decade." You can argue that both GOPers had massive black swans to deal with (9/11, corona), but neither did well under those circumstances. Bush blew all goodwill he had gained from unprecedented bipartisan support....until the Iraq debate. Then he lost everything.

OTOH, the two Dems had extremely successful terms, and using the all-purpose GOP barometer of success, the stock market boomed under both.

Bush was not a good president, but he was a good person. Trump is the worst of all-time on both counts. Both Dems are probably just outside the Top 10 by any objective standards.

2. Second question--do you believe that if the opposing candidate had won each of the elections since Clinton that the country would be better or worse off? That is, do you think we would have been better or worse off if HW Bush and Bob Doyle had been in charge over Clinton? Do you believe we would have been better or worse off under Gore vs W Bush? McCain and Romney vs Obama? HRC vs Trump? (From my perspective, I was voting against the Republican in these cases, except for the Obama elections--in both of those cases, I was voting for Obama, and the candidates he faced, by my estimation, happened to be the two best candidates Republicans had put up in my voting lifetime, but they just happened to face the best Democratic candidate in my lifetime, at least in terms of likability, coolness, and overall appeal to voters).

Given what we know now, would I trade the 2nd term of Obama for 2 terms of Romney, which would have then eliminated Trump from our memory? Maybe. Romney would have been a very good president, IMO. Too bad he just didn't run in 2016.

Gore would not have gone into Iraq, so there's that. McCain, had he won, would have also been a good president. HRC vs Trump? LOL. How many more people would be alive today? We wouldn't be the world's laughingstock. She might've faced a very tough re-election bid because in this alternate universe, the GOP would be blaming her for everything they're defending Trump for, and she would probably be facing Haley.

[Sour Masher]

Bush was not a good president, but he was a good person. Trump is the worst of all-time on both counts. Both Dems are probably just outside the Top 10 by any objective standards.

Yeah, that is my assessment, though I think Obama may be just inside the top 10 all time, and I'd rank Clinton well outside.

But yea, Bush is a decent man, but was one of the worst presidents we have ever had. I do not have the same animosity for him as I do for Trump (and I continue to be amazed at how Kanye West's brain can attack Bush on race but cowtow to Trump). But yet and still, his response to Katrina showed incompetence, and his insistence in bringing us into the Iraq War stands as one of the worst decisions in our nation's history.

I hate to say it, because, again, I like Bush the person and loathe Trump the person, but until the pandemic and how badly Trump responded to it, denying, minimizing, and costing many thousands of lives and many billions in wealth, it would have been easy to argue that Bush had the worse presidency of the two, even with all the racial strife and divisiveness Trump has fostered. The one thing Trump had going for him was he was a dove who only talked like a hawk, so he would not make the same mistake Bush did. But then the pandemic hit and we found out just how harmful having a self-centered political novice with no care for human life and no sense of long term consequences as president is. In the war against this disease, Trump has failed us so utterly, it is almost beyond comprehension.

[chancellor]

his insistence in bringing us into the Iraq War stands as one of the worst decisions in our nation's history.

“You and I believe, and many of us believe here, as long as Saddam is at the helm, there is no reasonable prospect you or any other inspector is ever going to be able to guarantee that we have rooted out, root and branch, the entirety of Saddam’s program relative to weapons of mass destruction. You and I both know, and all of us here really know, and it’s a thing we have to face, that the only way, the only way we’re going to get rid of Saddam Hussein is we’re going to end up having to start it alone — start it alone — and it’s going to require guys like you in uniform to be back on foot in the desert taking this son of a bitch Saddam down”

The "You" is Scott Ritter, UN Weapons Inspector who resigned. I'll leave you to figure out who the "I" is and when that statement was made.

[DMT]

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/10/democrats-early-voting-lead-412106

Democrats are amassing an enormous lead in early voting, alarming Republicans who worry they’ll need to orchestrate a huge Election Day turnout during a deadly coronavirus outbreak to answer the surge.

[Sour Masher]

“You and I believe, and many of us believe here, as long as Saddam is at the helm, there is no reasonable prospect you or any other inspector is ever going to be able to guarantee that we have rooted out, root and branch, the entirety of Saddam’s program relative to weapons of mass destruction. You and I both know, and all of us here really know, and it’s a thing we have to face, that the only way, the only way we’re going to get rid of Saddam Hussein is we’re going to end up having to start it alone — start it alone — and it’s going to require guys like you in uniform to be back on foot in the desert taking this son of a bitch Saddam down”

The "You" is Scott Ritter, UN Weapons Inspector who resigned. I'll leave you to figure out who the "I" is and when that statement was made.

I am confident old Joe won't be starting a war over the next four years. And hopefully both Dems and Republicans have learned their lessons from the Iraq War.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I am confident old Joe won't be starting a war over the next four years. And hopefully both Dems and Republicans have learned their lessons from the Iraq War.

Cuz he'll be fighting one here at home

[Teenwolf]

I am confident old Joe won't be starting a war over the next four years. And hopefully both Dems and Republicans have learned their lessons from the Iraq War.

Yeah, given the Obama administration track record with foreign engagement, that seems pretty misguided. Even looking at his harsh critiques of Trump meeting with Kim Jong-Un and his problematic statements about wiping them out, your faith in Biden is based on nothing but partisan sentiment.

[DMT]

Yeah, given the Obama administration track record with foreign engagement, that seems pretty misguided. Even looking at his harsh critiques of Trump meeting with Kim Jong-Un and his problematic statements about wiping them out, your faith in Biden is based on nothing but partisan sentiment.

Trump meeting with Kim Jong-Un was fucking stupid, it was right for Biden to harshly critique it. And while Biden voted for the Iraq war, the war would've happened regardless of how he voted, and he would not make the same strategic blunders that Bush did. Your hatred of Biden blinds you.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Trump meeting with Kim Jong-Un was fucking stupid, it was right for Biden to harshly critique it. And while Biden voted for the Iraq war, the war would've happened regardless of how he voted, and he would not make the same strategic blunders that Bush did. Your hatred of Biden blinds you.

Given the Intel that was being bandied about and the climate of 9/11 hanging in the air, even I would have voted to go to war with Iraq.

[DMT]

Given the Intel that was being bandied about and the climate of 9/11 hanging in the air, even I would have voted to go to war with Iraq.

Oh I don't excuse his vote because even I knew the WMD intel was all bullshit, but Bush, Cheney, Rummy, and Wolfy were gonna start that war one way or another, so to pretend Biden (or Clinton) were somehow responsible because of their vote is just silly.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Oh I don't excuse his vote because even I knew the WMD intel was all bullshit, but Bush, Cheney, Rummy, and Wolfy were gonna start that war one way or another, so to pretend Biden (or Clinton) were somehow responsible because of their vote is just silly.

I actually tried to re-enlist. Had just turned 40 so they said no--And I even had a Top secret clearance and spoke Arabic with an Iraqi dialect specialty.


You have no idea how happy I was they said no about 6 months afterward.

[gcstomp]

The effort to reach into Bidens past, decades, and ferret out a sentence that in todays light looks less than ideal, to prove he is to be distrusted. Man, that is sickening, but you win a cookie for points on trying to balance tally of a good guy vs incumbent who is an evil self serving muther. We know Biden is a good and decent person, full of empathy, and will strive to to the right thing for the disenfranchised,the poc, the aliens seeking asylum. Literally every bit of that is just the opposite with trump, who we know is without empathy, and all self serving and vain.

BTW, daily we are hearing of trump offenses, now numbering dozens, that any one would be uniquely out of place with all prior presidents, and would themselves be stand alone impeachable offenses with a working senate. Trump not responding to russia putting out bounties on american soldiers, and actually having paid out, and still, trump wont rebuke putin, and this is but 1 of literally dozens of black heart evil transgressions of current office holder.

Helsinki should have been the line to far for every decent person that trump must go, that he is in pocket of putin, or otherwise so enamored and wanting to emulate dictators as to be a joke that must be ousted. Trump outright said he trusted the word of putin over the combined us intel agencies. Just stop with the whatabout and confront we have the absolute wrong guy in office.

[Teenwolf]

The effort to reach into Bidens past, decades, and ferret out a sentence that in todays light looks less than ideal, to prove he is to be distrusted. Man, that is sickening, but you win a cookie for points on trying to balance tally of a good guy vs incumbent who is an evil self serving muther. We know Biden is a good and decent person, full of empathy, and will strive to to the right thing for the disenfranchised,the poc, the aliens seeking asylum. Literally every bit of that is just the opposite with trump, who we know is without empathy, and all self serving and vain.

BTW, daily we are hearing of trump offenses, now numbering dozens, that any one would be uniquely out of place with all prior presidents, and would themselves be stand alone impeachable offenses with a working senate. Trump not responding to russia putting out bounties on american soldiers, and actually having paid out, and still, trump wont rebuke putin, and this is but 1 of literally dozens of black heart evil transgressions of current office holder.

Helsinki should have been the line to far for every decent person that trump must go, that he is in pocket of putin, or otherwise so enamored and wanting to emulate dictators as to be a joke that must be ousted. Trump outright said he trusted the word of putin over the combined us intel agencies. Just stop with the whatabout and confront we have the absolute wrong guy in office.

Holy shit, youre drinking the Russiagate flavored kool-aid by the gallon. Focus on reality.

I fell super hard for Russiagate 2 years ago, and I'm furious the media lied and misled the public. I can't believe people still go in as hard as you for this garbage.