Election 2020

[nots]

Ok, I'm glad you clarified. Putting some people temporarily out of work while employing many more was the problem. Not half a million people losing their jobs.

I'll take a look at your VA and medicair questions if you address why our system which costs so much more than other countries on a per capita basis doesn't need to be fixed. Or why it is more efficient or better than universal health care that is common throughout Europe. What are we getting for the extra 50% we pay ? Or maybe you are just claiming that our government in particular is incapable of providing good health care ?

Still avoiding I see.
Well, to actually attempt to answer your questions/statements:
1. I don’t believe I ever said our system didn’t need to be fixed. Please show me where I said that. If you are going to randomly assign me beliefs that I don’t hold, there really isn’t much need to respond.
2. Are you saying you think it’s better than in Europe or the US? Or I think it’s better in Europe or the US? I can’t tell. Here is a link:

https://www.internationalinsurance.com/news/ranking-top-eleven-healthcare-systems-country.php

Looks like we are last (surprise, surprise, Canada is next to last). I accept these rankings FWIW.
3. A large portion of what we pay goes for frivolous tests, MRIs and unnecessary medications. Lot of that (but certainly not all) is due to the fear of malpractice lawsuits. Tort reform and a cap on malpractice damages would be a small, but solid step in our health care reform.
4. It would seem in the case of the VA that yes, our government does not provide ‘good health care’. In terms of Medicare, it would appear that our government does not provide efficient or budgetarily sustainable health care.
Your turn.

[baldgriff]

57% of discretionary funding is going to the military this year. We have the money, we just choose to waste it on an unnecessary imperialist military empire.

I have agreed with you that we need to cut military spending. I have not seen a plan that actually appears to be affordable - let alone efficient (which the government is not). Now if you are back tracking like Kamala and allowing for private insurance companies then you would seem to agree that a straight single payer system likely is not possible - which is what I have been claiming (along with nots) throughout this entire conversation.

[The Feral Slasher]

Still avoiding I see.
Well, to actually attempt to answer your questions/statements:
1. I don’t believe I ever said our system didn’t need to be fixed. Please show me where I said that. If you are going to randomly assign me beliefs that I don’t hold, there really isn’t much need to respond.
2. Are you saying you think it’s better than in Europe or the US? Or I think it’s better in Europe or the US? I can’t tell. Here is a link:

https://www.internationalinsurance.com/news/ranking-top-eleven-healthcare-systems-country.php

Looks like we are last (surprise, surprise, Canada is next to last). I accept these rankings FWIW.
3. A large portion of what we pay goes for frivolous tests, MRIs and unnecessary medications. Lot of that (but certainly not all) is due to the fear of malpractice lawsuits. Tort reform and a cap on malpractice damages would be a small, but solid step in our health care reform.
4. It would seem in the case of the VA that yes, our government does not provide ‘good health care’. In terms of Medicare, it would appear that our government does not provide efficient or budgetarily sustainable health care.
Your turn.

So we agree that it needs to be fixed then. Progress. Does the link you provided ranking "Healthcare Systems By Country" apply to mecidare, VA, Private insurance ?

I don't think you provided any evidence for your point 4, unless that is what the link from item 2 was for ?

[DMT]

I have agreed with you that we need to cut military spending. I have not seen a plan that actually appears to be affordable - let alone efficient (which the government is not). Now if you are back tracking like Kamala and allowing for private insurance companies then you would seem to agree that a straight single payer system likely is not possible - which is what I have been claiming (along with nots) throughout this entire conversation.

I don't recall ever claiming a straight single payer system is possible at this time. Like all major social programs it has to be done gradually and tinkered with as issues arise. The ACA was never supposed to be a panacea but a first step. However, since Republicans are more concerned about profits than public health, they've done everything they can to destroy it, despite widespread public support now that the public experienced its benefits.

[nots]

So we agree that it needs to be fixed then. Progress. Does the link you provided ranking "Healthcare Systems By Country" apply to mecidare, VA, Private insurance ?

I don't think you provided any evidence for your point 4, unless that is what the link from item 2 was for ?

Probably 2 dozen articles about problems with the VA you could find with just a cursory Google search. Here’s one with links to others:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/28/va-veterans-affairs-history-setbacks-missteps.html

Here is one outlining the Medicare shortfall:

https://www.pgpf.org/analysis/2017/07/medicare-trustees-warn-of-serious-financial-shortfalls

I assume the previous link I provided is a total encapsulation of all medical treatment within those countries. I don’t think it changes my argument materially either way.

[baldgriff]

I don't recall ever claiming a straight single payer system is possible at this time. Like all major social programs it has to be done gradually and tinkered with as issues arise. The ACA was never supposed to be a panacea but a first step. However, since Republicans are more concerned about profits than public health, they've done everything they can to destroy it, despite widespread public support now that the public experienced its benefits.

That was the nature of the discussion as people were defending KAMALA's statement about eliminating private insurance. It was the crux of the discussion. The ACA was doomed to fail from the beginning because "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it." Again plain old supply and demand are what make it untenable.

[The Feral Slasher]

Probably 2 dozen articles about problems with the VA you could find with just a cursory Google search. Here’s one with links to others:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/28/va-veterans-affairs-history-setbacks-missteps.html

Here is one outlining the Medicare shortfall:

https://www.pgpf.org/analysis/2017/07/medicare-trustees-warn-of-serious-financial-shortfalls

I assume the previous link I provided is a total encapsulation of all medical treatment within those countries. I don’t think it changes my argument materially either way.

So is our system of private health care more efficient and better than Canada's and European systems ? I guess that is the place to start.

[DMT]

That was the nature of the discussion as people were defending KAMALA's statement about eliminating private insurance. It was the crux of the discussion. The ACA was doomed to fail from the beginning because "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it." Again plain old supply and demand are what make it untenable.

Everyone needs healthcare at some point in their lives. It's not an Econ 101 market.

[nots]

So is our system of private health care more efficient and better than Canada's and European systems ? I guess that is the place to start.

Well, the data says it isn’t, which means that expanding it without first correcting the existing problems is only going to create more and larger problems and shortfalls.

[The Feral Slasher]

Well, the data says it isn’t, which means that expanding it without first correcting the existing problems is only going to create more and larger problems and shortfalls.

Fair enough. I would hope we could use their proven methods to improve our own, but perhaps our government is so screwed up that it won't help

[nots]

but perhaps our government is so screwed up that it won't help

Ding, ding, ding! Welcome to Libertarianism. We don’t win elections, but we still have fun

[baldgriff]

Everyone needs healthcare at some point in their lives. It's not an Econ 101 market.

I agree everyone may need healthcare at some point. However, until ACA, people had the choice of whether they carried insurance or not. No judgement being made on how that works for them - it was there decision to go with or without coverage

Healthcare Insurance is an ECON 101 market. Prices are continuing to go up, while coverage gets worse and worse. Why? Everyone now has to buy some kind of insurance (unlimited demand). Yet there is a limited supply of insurance providers and they get to set the market price for coverage and what the coverage consists of. There is very little competition between carriers, and some carriers dont want to be in certain states. Sure - you may call it an oversimplification - but be honest here. The Insurance Companies hold all the cards and there is no real competitive market, but yet everyone has to buy something.

[The Feral Slasher]

Ding, ding, ding! Welcome to Libertarianism. We don’t win elections, but we still have fun

But you just acknowledged (I think) that government run health care sytems in other countries are not less efficient than our own system of private health care. A libertarian wouldn't believe this is possible, would they ? That was really what I was trying to get at all along --is fixing our health care impossible because government can't do anything right or because American Government can't do anything right ?

[DMT]

I agree everyone may need healthcare at some point. However, until ACA, people had the choice of whether they carried insurance or not. No judgement being made on how that works for them - it was there decision to go with or without coverage

Healthcare Insurance is an ECON 101 market. Prices are continuing to go up, while coverage gets worse and worse. Why? Everyone now has to buy some kind of insurance (unlimited demand). Yet there is a limited supply of insurance providers and they get to set the market price for coverage and what the coverage consists of. There is very little competition between carriers, and some carriers dont want to be in certain states. Sure - you may call it an oversimplification - but be honest here. The Insurance Companies hold all the cards and there is no real competitive market , but yet everyone has to buy something.

Which is why we need to continue to implement a new system.

[nots]

But you just acknowledged (I think) that government run health care sytems in other countries are not less efficient than our own system of private health care. A libertarian wouldn't believe this is possible, would they ? That was really what I was trying to get at all along --is fixing our health care impossible because government can't do anything right or because American Government can't do anything right ?

I reject the premise that government or the US government can’t do anything right. However, the bigger the project or program and the bigger the government (or the country it serves) the more likely it is to make a situation worse. I don’t know how that fits into whatever narrative you are trying to create.