Election 2020

[baldgriff]

I agree, you should have the right to do whatever you want with your body. However, you focus on forcing the government pay for treatment for a guy smoking 4 packs a day. What about all the people who live healthy lives that also get sick for reasons beyond their control? Just sucks to be them, I guess. For lots of hard working people, when they get sick enough, they are better off dead than alive in our society, because they are such a financial burden to their families. I think that is egregious and should not stand in a nation with the resources to do something about it.

SM - as a matter of consistency - I do not have an issue with assisted suicide. I also think that "quality of life" is an important matter for families to be able to consider when dealing with care of parents or grandparents. So the grandmother sitting in a chair drooling on herself all day, that doesnt recognize anyone from her family or in general and cant speak or live in a coherent manner - well the family should be able to make a decision about letting that person die with dignity rather than drooling, pooping and peeing all over themselves for the last years of their lives. One reason their is such a large financial burden is that the family is not allowed to make a decision (while difficult- and we can discuss the morality of it) that relieves the family of that burden. Our health care system requires that this person live, lying in a bed drooling, pooping and peeing on themselves because while they have no actual life quality or honor - but their brain hasnt turned off the heart.

Ok - Im crass or uber-pragmatic - I accept that.

[gcstomp]

i am for assisted suicide in cases as well. my 96 year old grandmother has zero quality of life, and would opt out now if she could. she is in a crazy expensive nursing home, cannot dress herself or use restroom on her own, and can verbalize to me a type of misery in her state that leaves me in tears when i visit. care to know the monthly cost of her care? i promise, some of you would not believe me.

[Sour Masher]

SM - as a matter of consistency - I do not have an issue with assisted suicide. I also think that "quality of life" is an important matter for families to be able to consider when dealing with care of parents or grandparents. So the grandmother sitting in a chair drooling on herself all day, that doesnt recognize anyone from her family or in general and cant speak or live in a coherent manner - well the family should be able to make a decision about letting that person die with dignity rather than drooling, pooping and peeing all over themselves for the last years of their lives. One reason their is such a large financial burden is that the family is not allowed to make a decision (while difficult- and we can discuss the morality of it) that relieves the family of that burden. Our health care system requires that this person live, lying in a bed drooling, pooping and peeing on themselves because while they have no actual life quality or honor - but their brain hasnt turned off the heart.

Ok - Im crass or uber-pragmatic - I accept that.

Yeah, I'm in favor of assisted suicide in such cases too--Canada's system for this seems like a good one. But you keep picking examples that fit your stance when the reality is that massive financial costs for treatment are not just for old folks who don't recognize their family anymore. It is also for young children and otherwise healthy adults in need of treatment for a variety of very expensive issues. Maybe focusing on drooling grandma's you think families should be allowed to let die rather than be a financial burden helps you maintain your stance on this issue, but be honest that is not the only type of person we are talking about. We are also talking about 2 year olds in need of organ transplants, young mothers and fathers in need of treatment for a variety of issues that, if treated, can help them live long fulfilling lives.

[baldgriff]

i am for assisted suicide in cases as well. my 96 year old grandmother has zero quality of life, and would opt out now if she could. she is in a crazy expensive nursing home, cannot dress herself or use restroom on her own, and can verbalize to me a type of misery in her state that leaves me in tears when i visit. care to know the monthly cost of her care? i promise, some of you would not believe me.

GC - I am sorry that you have to go through this.

[Sour Masher]

GC - I am sorry that you have to go through this.

Me too. That is horrible.

[baldgriff]

You keep picking examples that fit your stance when the reality is that massive financial costs for treatment are not just for old folks who don't recognize their family anymore. It is also for young children and otherwise healthy adults in need of treatment for a variety of very expensive issues. Maybe focusing on drooling grandma's you think families should be allowed to let die rather than be a financial burden helps you maintain your stance on this issue, but be honest that is not the only type of person we are talking about. We are also talking about 2 year olds in need of organ transplants, young mothers and fathers in need of treatment for a variety of issues that, if treated, can help them live long fulfilling lives.

Dude - there is a case here in AZ where a girl has been in a long term care facility since childhood after a swimming accident. Originally it was stated she had been in a vegetative state for some 15+ years. Other details about this aside. The first thing I said to my friend was "why is she being kept alive for that long in a vegetative case. So pulling the plug on kids would be fine too....

You make it sound like the intent of "health care for all" is to eliminate all illness and disease for each and every person. Is it really the governments responsibility to make sure that 2 year old kids get organ transplants? Is it really their responsibility to cure every young mother and father? What you are asking for is WAY WAY more than health care for.

When I grew up my dad told me that there are essentially 2 rules in life:
1 - Life is not fair
2 - Dont like it .... see rule 1

How do I know these rules to be true? Well just look around our world - Life is not fair. Some of

[TranaGreg]

You make it sound like the intent of "health care for all" is to eliminate all illness and disease for each and every person. Is it really the governments responsibility to make sure that 2 year old kids get organ transplants? Is it really their responsibility to cure every young mother and father? What you are asking for is WAY WAY more than health care for.

well since you're open to an informed discussion on this topic, here's our operating principles for health care ... just for a comparator of how some societies approach this ...

The Act sets out the primary objective of Canadian health care policy, which is "to protect, promote and restore the physical and mental well-being of residents of Canada and to facilitate reasonable access to health services without financial or other barriers

it's really not too much to ask for, that a two year old who needs an organ transplant, can get it.

[baldgriff]

The Act sets out the primary objective of Canadian health care policy, which is "to protect, promote and restore the physical and mental well-being of residents of Canada and to facilitate reasonable access to health services without financial or other barriers

Apparently "reasonable access" means curing all illness and disease in the world.

Again, I accept Im probably crass or "uber-pragmatic" in this discussion, but it is not the governments role to cure everyone of every ill. By demanding that - you give them control of you.

[TranaGreg]

Apparently "reasonable access" means curing all illness and disease in the world.

huh? where did you get this interpretation from?

that is most certainly not the goal of our health care system.

[baldgriff]

huh? where did you get this interpretation from?

that is most certainly not the goal of our health care system.

"to protect, promote and restore the physical and mental well-being of residents of Canada and to facilitate reasonable access to health services without financial or other barriers"

Ooops not the world - Canada... j/k

Please define what reasonable access to health services are. Is the kidney for the 2 yr old ok, but not for the 45 year old with liver cirrhosis? Is a new lung ok for the 5 year old, but not for the 65 year old with COPD from 4 packing it? Who makes the determination as to what is reasonable access? Is access based on relative location, cost of care, age of person, how much the person can pay?

So if the government says it wont cover the kidney transplant for the 2 year old - what then? It's ok now that the poor sick child dies, because the government deigned they wouldnt pay for it? Does it make it easier to swallow that this happens because some government administrator made a decision as to what the government will pay for?


I agree that the cost of medical care is outrageous. When Obamacare was introduced - we were told it was going to make healthcare affordable for everyone. Prices and Premiums have continued to rise - why is that?? Well I tried explaining the the simple law of supply and demand would necessitate increased costs. There is literally an almost infinite demand for Health Care coverage - because the government has mandated at the penalty of fines that every person have healthcare coverage. Yet there are only a few actual providers and they get to set the price of their coverage. So everyone has to buy insurance at whatever the price is, because we have to have it. Premiums go up - yet the actual quality of coverage goes down..... still have to buy insurance. Unless of course your employer provides it - but those premiums have increased and the coverage for many of those plans have gotten worse. Still have to buy insurance or pay a fine to the government.

I want "reasonable" health care expense. If that means just shifting what I pay now to some "health care" tax - well its not going to be any more affordable or effective than the coverage already is. I suspect in the short term it may get worse and maybe after enough administrators are hired the cost will be justifiable.

[The Feral Slasher]

huh? where did you get this interpretation from?

that is most certainly not the goal of our health care system.

It's comical to hear people argue that we can't afford it or it can't be done when it'd done in Canada and just about every other developed country in the world.

[DMT]

It's comical to hear people argue that we can't afford it or it can't be done when it'd done in Canada and just about every other developed country in the world.

Not only that it can't be done, but, appallingly, shouldn't be done.

[The Feral Slasher]

"to protect, promote and restore the physical and mental well-being of residents of Canada and to facilitate reasonable access to health services without financial or other barriers"

Ooops not the world - Canada... j/k

Please define what reasonable access to health services are. Is the kidney for the 2 yr old ok, but not for the 45 year old with liver cirrhosis? Is a new lung ok for the 5 year old, but not for the 65 year old with COPD from 4 packing it? Who makes the determination as to what is reasonable access? Is access based on relative location, cost of care, age of person, how much the person can pay?

So if the government says it wont cover the kidney transplant for the 2 year old - what then? It's ok now that the poor sick child dies, because the government deigned they wouldnt pay for it? Does it make it easier to swallow that this happens because some government administrator made a decision as to what the government will pay for?


I agree that the cost of medical care is outrageous. When Obamacare was introduced - we were told it was going to make healthcare affordable for everyone. Prices and Premiums have continued to rise - why is that?? Well I tried explaining the the simple law of supply and demand would necessitate increased costs. There is literally an almost infinite demand for Health Care coverage - because the government has mandated at the penalty of fines that every person have healthcare coverage. Yet there are only a few actual providers and they get to set the price of their coverage. So everyone has to buy insurance at whatever the price is, because we have to have it. Premiums go up - yet the actual quality of coverage goes down..... still have to buy insurance. Unless of course your employer provides it - but those premiums have increased and the coverage for many of those plans have gotten worse. Still have to buy insurance or pay a fine to the government.

I want "reasonable" health care expense. If that means just shifting what I pay now to some "health care" tax - well its not going to be any more affordable or effective than the coverage already is. I suspect in the short term it may get worse and maybe after enough administrators are hired the cost will be justifiable.

So do you think Canada pays more per capita or less than we do ? Their systems sounds super expensive, plus they cover everyone. Even those alcoholics with liver cirhosis. It must cost way more than our system right. ?

[hacko]

Not only that it can't be done, but, appallingly, shouldn't be done.

Yes my parents also taught me Rules:
Treat people like you would want to be treated.

I hope I have enough compassion to want everyone to have Healthcare.

[Judge Jude]

Cory Booker about to throw his ... baseball cap for bald guys into the ring