Election 2020

[Sour Masher]

I think honesty and integrity are important, which is why, despite my not supporting Biden, I've found myself defending my sense of his honesty and integrity on these boards. Folks like nots, who used to support Biden as a palatable D he'd be willing to vote for to replace Trump, seem to have waivered in their belief in Biden's honesty and integrity, because his son leveraged the family name into a job. That fact on its own is not enough for me to change my mind that Biden is a decent fellow I happen to disagree with.

[Sour Masher]

Some informative points for why a wealth tax could work here when it doesn't in Europe: https://www.politico.com/news/2019/1...h-plans-071198

[revo]

A CNN poll has found Mayor Pete's lead in Iowa is no fluke.....and he's drawn off by a wide margin.

Iowa Democratic Presidential Caucus	DM Register/CNN	Buttigieg 25, Warren 16, Biden 15, Sanders 15, Klobuchar 6, Harris 3, Yang 3, Steyer 3, Gabbard 3, Booker 3, Bloomberg 2, Bennet 1	[B]Buttigieg +9[/B]

[Teenwolf]

A CNN poll has found Mayor Pete's lead in Iowa is no fluke.....and he's drawn off by a wide margin.

Iowa Democratic Presidential Caucus	DM Register/CNN	Buttigieg 25, Warren 16, Biden 15, Sanders 15, Klobuchar 6, Harris 3, Yang 3, Steyer 3, Gabbard 3, Booker 3, Bloomberg 2, Bennet 1	[B]Buttigieg +9[/B]

If Buttigieg's rise comes at the expense of Biden and Warren, I'm happy.

If Iowa finished with Buttigieg 1st, Biden 4th, that would totally shift the rest of the race. I wonder how South Carolina would vote in that scenario.

[Teenwolf]

I think honesty and integrity are important, which is why, despite my not supporting Biden, I've found myself defending my sense of his honesty and integrity on these boards. Folks like nots, who used to support Biden as a palatable D he'd be willing to vote for to replace Trump, seem to have waivered in their belief in Biden's honesty and integrity, because his son leveraged the family name into a job. That fact on its own is not enough for me to change my mind that Biden is a decent fellow I happen to disagree with.

Biden has been full of shit across the board.

He lied about his role in the Iraq War, saying that Bush made promises that weren't kept.

He lied about his role in Anita Hill's testimony, completely fabricating his role as "wishing there was something he could have done."

He lied about campaign finance, claiming that it was HE who told Bernie Sanders that he shouldn't run with PAC money because it makes you look corrupt! Are you kidding me?!

He has lied and continues to lie about M4A, saying that there would be a coverage gap among other lies.

[Sour Masher]

Biden has been full of shit across the board.

He lied about his role in the Iraq War, saying that Bush made promises that weren't kept.

He lied about his role in Anita Hill's testimony, completely fabricating his role as "wishing there was something he could have done."

He lied about campaign finance, claiming that it was HE who told Bernie Sanders that he shouldn't run with PAC money because it makes you look corrupt! Are you kidding me?!

He has lied and continues to lie about M4A, saying that there would be a coverage gap among other lies.

If Iowa is the canary in the coal mine, he will lose traction fast. I prefer Mayor Pete to him as the moderate choice for many reasons. If he does surpass Biden, I'm sure your ire will shift to him. All these candidates have flaws. You have pointed out most of them, for everyone but Sanders. Sanders is a great guy with unique integrity as a politician, but he still has flaws as a candidate that I think you don't want to see or seem to want to acknowledge. He is old, just had a heart attack, is Jewish, and is an unabashed and self-described socialist. These are big deals, yet you continue to see him as the best and maybe only shot of beating Trump. There are tons of voters out there that don't listen to Jimmy Dore or read the Hill for whom the label socialist or Democratic Socialist is a total deal breaker. There are also many anti-semites in this country.

I know you love the guy and want him to win, but to continue to push him as the only candidate with any worth--it makes me fear a Trump re-election. I haven't met supporters of any other candidate who are that candidate or bust. But die-hard Bernie supporters largely seem to see everyone not named Bernie as complete garbage sure to suppress turn out and guarantee a Trump re-election. It seems like a self-fulling prophesy for Bernie supporters.

[The Feral Slasher]

I know you love the guy and want him to win, but to continue to push him as the only candidate with any worth--it makes me fear a Trump re-election. I haven't met supporters of any other candidate who are that candidate or bust. But die-hard Bernie supporters largely seem to see everyone not named Bernie as complete garbage sure to suppress turn out and guarantee a Trump re-election. It seems like a self-fulling prophesy for Bernie supporters.

Not that I agree that all other candidates are complete garbage, but if you are going to call out Bernie supporters you also ought to call out Obama and the like for basically labeling Sanders proposals as "crazy". If the DNC is doing that they really shouldn't be shocked if people who support those policies decide not to support the Dems. But we all know that they will take the blame again if Trump wins again.

[Sour Masher]

Not that I agree that all other candidates are complete garbage, but if you are going to call out Bernie supporters you also ought to call out Obama and the like for basically labeling Sanders proposals as "crazy". If the DNC is doing that they really shouldn't be shocked if people who support those policies decide not to support the Dems. But we all know that they will take the blame again if Trump wins again.

Well, shouldn't they take some blame? I also think some of Sanders proposals are "crazy" either because they will never get passed, or because they go farther than I would in taxation to pay for things I don't think are basic human rights like health care. But I'd still happily vote for him over Trump. Also, the way to move forward is to engage and force candidates to earn your vote by adopting policies you want. The ideas should matter, not the man, otherwise you end up in a cult of personality like trump voters. Warren, for instance, shares most of Bernie's ideas, but gets attacked as viciously by TW and other Bernie or busters as she does from the right.

It creates strange bedfellows, where Bernie supporters and Trump supporters agree on their assessments of all Democratic candidates except one. It reminds me of the old Christopher Hitchens joke that atheists and monotheists agree that 99.9% of gods are false. They just disagree on that one. In Sanders' supporters case, that one is Bernie. Outside of Bernie, they seem to agree with GOPers that all other Democrats are crap who no one should vote for.

[nots]

I think honesty and integrity are important, which is why, despite my not supporting Biden, I've found myself defending my sense of his honesty and integrity on these boards. Folks like nots, who used to support Biden as a palatable D he'd be willing to vote for to replace Trump, seem to have waivered in their belief in Biden's honesty and integrity, because his son leveraged the family name into a job. That fact on its own is not enough for me to change my mind that Biden is a decent fellow I happen to disagree with.

Still planning on voting for Biden if he gets the nomination vs Trump (barring additional information) because he is a moderate who’s economic vision isnt a 100% anathema to me.. Doesn’t mean I’m willing to twist myself into a pretzel defending a pretty obvious conflict of interest or push back against the fallacy that ‘Hunter did nothing wrong’. The ambassador’s testimony on Friday gives even more credibility to the talking point that the.Obama administration had deep concerns and that she admitted she was directed to send inquiries about it to the VP’s office.

[The Feral Slasher]

Well, shouldn't they take some blame? I also think some of Sanders proposals are "crazy" either because they will never get passed, or because they go farther than I would in taxation to pay for things I don't think are basic human rights like health care. But I'd still happily vote for him over Trump. Also, the way to move forward is to engage and force candidates to earn your vote by adopting policies you want. The ideas should matter, not the man, otherwise you end up in a cult of personality like trump voters. Warren, for instance, shares most of Bernie's ideas, but gets attacked as viciously by TW and other Bernie or busters as she does from the right.

It creates strange bedfellows, where Bernie supporters and Trump supporters agree on their assessments of all Democratic candidates except one. It reminds me of the old Christopher Hitchens joke that atheists and monotheists agree that 99.9% of gods are false. They just disagree on that one. In Sanders' supporters case, that one is Bernie. Outside of Bernie, they seem to agree with GOPers that all other Democrats are crap who no one should vote for.

Sigh....no, no one is obligated to vote for the Democratic party. They need to present positions that make people want to vote for them. It's that simple.

The rest of your stuff is just complaints about TW and your opinion about others like him which I really don't care very much about.


EDIT: I'd not that your comment "Also, the way to move forward is to engage and force candidates to earn your vote by adopting policies you want" applies to all candidates, not just Sanders.

[Sour Masher]

Still planning on voting for Biden if he gets the nomination vs Trump (barring additional information) because he is a moderate who’s economic vision isnt a 100% anathema to me.. Doesn’t mean I’m willing to twist myself into a pretzel defending a pretty obvious conflict of interest or push back against the fallacy that ‘Hunter did nothing wrong’. The ambassador’s testimony on Friday gives even more credibility to the talking point that the.Obama administration had deep concerns and that she admitted she was directed to send inquiries about it to the VP’s office.

I would think everyone but his dad agrees Hunter was not qualified for that position, and should not have been given that position.

[Sour Masher]

Sigh....no, no one is obligated to vote for the Democratic party. They need to present positions that make people want to vote for them. It's that simple.

The rest of your stuff is just complaints about TW and your opinion about others like him which I really don't care very much about.


EDIT: I'd not that your comment "Also, the way to move forward is to engage and force candidates to earn your vote by adopting policies you want" applies to all candidates, not just Sanders.

I meant it to apply to all supporters of all candidates. As far as the first part of your post, I believe every candidate in either party would be better than Trump. I hope enough people agree and Trump does not get reelected. He is not a normal candidate. He must be removed, even if that means voting for someone else you do not align with completely.

[The Feral Slasher]

I meant it to apply to all supporters of all candidates. As far as the first part of your post, I believe every candidate in either party would be better than Trump. I hope enough people agree and Trump does not get reelected. He is not a normal candidate. He must be removed, even if that means voting for someone else you do not align with completely.

So then how is is Sander's supporters fault ?

[Teenwolf]

So nobody is willing to dig into the details of why Warren's pivot from copying Sanders' health proposal to now copying Buttigieg is bound to fail? Nobody willing to admit that the public option would be a nuclear bomb, and would turn people away from a full M4A push? Gee, I'm shocked...

Somehow I'm labeled as not being willing to critique my candidate, yet all the Warren supporters here ignore my detailed analysis.

[Sour Masher]

So then how is is Sander's supporters fault ?

Because some of them are the only democrats I have seen who seem to be for their first choice or no one.