Election 2020

[Teenwolf]

Not in their jobs as members of the Trump administration they aren't

My only disagreement with nots is that i believe the Trump kids' money-making is very explicitly corrupt. It may very well be of the same nature of corruption Hunter Biden engaged in, but involved more widespread, more far-reaching corruption. I would guess that to be the case.

None of that absolves the Bidens.

Sour Masher, Joe Biden has a nickname "the senator from MBNA". He gained this nickname because of his dealings with the big banks, who are his biggest campaign contributors throughout his career. Biden came through for the banks several times, including the awful bankruptcy bill, and the massive bailout package, among other things. The fact that you see a senator who's been taking money in exchange for political favors his entire career as worthy of the benefit of the doubt on the issue of corruption is laughable. This is what "soft corruption" is. It's not illegal, its widespread, its non-partisan. But that doesn't mean it's not corrupt. Joe Biden himself claimed that he told Bernie to run without corporate PAC money, because that money has the appearance of corruption. He said this himself! Dude cannot even remember who the fuck he is, or his son, apparently.

[Sour Masher]

Sour Masher, Joe Biden has a nickname "the senator from MBNA". He gained this nickname because of his dealings with the big banks, who are his biggest campaign contributors throughout his career. Biden came through for the banks several times, including the awful bankruptcy bill, and the massive bailout package, among other things. The fact that you see a senator who's been taking money in exchange for political favors his entire career as worthy of the benefit of the doubt on the issue of corruption is laughable. This is what "soft corruption" is. It's not illegal, its widespread, its non-partisan. But that doesn't mean it's not corrupt. Joe Biden himself claimed that he told Bernie to run without corporate PAC money, because that money has the appearance of corruption. He said this himself! Dude cannot even remember who the fuck he is, or his son, apparently.

I agree that campaign finance is an issue. I wish more people cared about it. McCain did, but it didn't get him anywhere, and as you concede, nearly every politician takes money from corporate interests, but that in and of itself is not proof that they are in their pocket. There is plenty of evidence of candidates taking campaign funds without being influenced by them. Hell, they sometimes take money from both sides. It is ridiculous, I agree. But begging for and taking such funds to run our ridiculously long and expensive elections seems to be a necessary evil for even honest candidates until we as a nation force reform.

Your claim that Biden provided political favors in exchange for bribes (unless you just mean he used such funds legally to pay for his campaign like every other politician not named Bernie Sanders?)--where is the proof of that? If he is the corrupt shill you make him out to be, why does he and his wife have a combined net worth of $9 million--a substantial sum, to be sure, but not outrageous for a 76 year old man with decades of work behind him, including lucrative book deals, and speaking fees from both he and his wife.

Do you know how much Fidel Castro was worth at his death? Damn near a billion dollars. Some say Putin is the richest man in the world, with assets over $200 billion. That speaks to obvious corruption. I think there is at least some evidence of that with the Clintons too--certainly a former president is in demand and it seems reasonable that he'd make money giving speeches, but the extent of these and the numbers involved, and from whom, they are "concerns" to be sure. And there is obvious evidence of self-enrichment with Trump. But where is the evidence that Biden has been bribed for political favors? Certainly not in his bank account.

[Teenwolf]

I didn't say Biden took bribes, I said that he took campaign contributions that work as influence to grease the wheels for political favors. No less corrupt than Trump taking $20 Mil from the NRA. Same shit from the same swamp.

If you think Joe Biden's net worth of $9 Million is so low that it proves a lack of corruption, we have nothing more to discuss. That argument is beneath you. Yeah, Hunter Biden only made a couple mil from Burisma, Joe is only worth $9 mil.... Corruption is corruption.

Trump took $300K in hotel money from the Saudis, then blocked the move to end support for the Saudi war in Yemen. $$$ = A, political favor = B. Trumps corruption is the same as Biden's. Maybe more flagrant or more money being exchanged, but it's the same stuff.

[Sour Masher]

I didn't say Biden took bribes, I said that he took campaign contributions that work as influence to grease the wheels for political favors. No less corrupt than Trump taking $20 Mil from the NRA. Same shit from the same swamp.

If you think Joe Biden's net worth of $9 Million is so low that it proves a lack of corruption, we have nothing more to discuss. That argument is beneath you. Yeah, Hunter Biden only made a couple mil from Burisma, Joe is only worth $9 mil.... Corruption is corruption.

Trump took $300K in hotel money from the Saudis, then blocked the move to end support for the Saudi war in Yemen. $$$ = A, political favor = B. Trumps corruption is the same as Biden's. Maybe more flagrant or more money being exchanged, but it's the same stuff.

Joe Biden's wealth is accounted for by his salary, book deals, and speaking fees (which were not insane like Cllinton's). My point was he did not have wealth not accounted for, which would be evidence of under the table dealings. If all you are claiming is he took plitical campaign contributions from shady people, you are right, we have nothing left to talk about. Literally everyone does that, except Sanders. And Sanders can't fill every government position, so we are left with everyone else in government having done that. Do I agree with it? No. I wish we had meaningful campaign finance reform. But we don't. So we are left with a system in which everyone does this. You seem to assume, based on that fact, that everyone is corrupt. I have a more generous view of human nature. I believe most politicians glad hand and smile, but deep down tell themselves and act as they think is right. Is it possible that Biden votes and talks like someone aligned with corporate wealth because they pay him to? Yes. Is it also possible he actually ideologically believes in the system as it is? I believe he does. I don't have to agree with him, and I don't on many things. But just as I don't see Pelosi impeaching Trump to hurt Sanders and Warren, I see no evidence that Biden behaves as he does because of campaign donations. I think it is the reverse--they contribute because of what he believes and does.

This really comes down to how we see the man. From the start, it was obvious you think he is a real scumbag. Conversely, I see him as a decent person, especially for a politician, with whom I disagree on many things (like the importance of health care, climate change, etc). But to be fair to Biden, don't you see pretty much every presidential candidate except Sanders as a real scumbag? Aren't they all guilty of the sins you attribute to Biden? Yet you seem to really single him out. Is it because he was/is a front runner?

[Sour Masher]

Looks like Warren thinks Med4All needs to happen incrementally with several bills. Does her way make it more doable to get something done? Fast tracking improvements many can agree on first makes sense to me. All or nothing may end up with nothing.

https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2019/11/15/warren-medicare-for-all-071152

[Teenwolf]

Buttigieg is so desperate for black voters, he had to release a fake endorsement from "prominent black voters", half of whom turned out to be white, many of whom absolutely did not endorse him. He had to amend his endorsement list. What a clusterfuck. Its complicated, but this video clip explains what happened.

Original story here:

Pete Buttigieg Touted Three Major Supporters of His Douglass Plan For Black America. They Were Alarmed When They Saw It.

[Teenwolf]

Joe Biden's wealth is accounted for by his salary, book deals, and speaking fees (which were not insane like Cllinton's). My point was he did not have wealth not accounted for, which would be evidence of under the table dealings. If all you are claiming is he took plitical campaign contributions from shady people, you are right, we have nothing left to talk about. Literally everyone does that, except Sanders. And Sanders can't fill every government position, so we are left with everyone else in government having done that. Do I agree with it? No. I wish we had meaningful campaign finance reform. But we don't. So we are left with a system in which everyone does this. You seem to assume, based on that fact, that everyone is corrupt. I have a more generous view of human nature. I believe most politicians glad hand and smile, but deep down tell themselves and act as they think is right. Is it possible that Biden votes and talks like someone aligned with corporate wealth because they pay him to? Yes. Is it also possible he actually ideologically believes in the system as it is? I believe he does. I don't have to agree with him, and I don't on many things. But just as I don't see Pelosi impeaching Trump to hurt Sanders and Warren, I see no evidence that Biden behaves as he does because of campaign donations. I think it is the reverse--they contribute because of what he believes and does.

This really comes down to how we see the man. From the start, it was obvious you think he is a real scumbag. Conversely, I see him as a decent person, especially for a politician, with whom I disagree on many things (like the importance of health care, climate change, etc). But to be fair to Biden, don't you see pretty much every presidential candidate except Sanders as a real scumbag? Aren't they all guilty of the sins you attribute to Biden? Yet you seem to really single him out. Is it because he was/is a front runner?

I find your faith and trust in the political system more disturbing than anything. The fact you dont see money as a corrupting influence... you believe that the Koch brothers spend tens of millions of dollars on political think tanks and super PAC's... as a reward system for the politicians who happen to be pursuing policies beneficial to them? Correct me if I've misconstrued what you've said, because that's absolutely crazy. I'm sure I could find articles that connect campaign contributions to legislation. We just need to set that aside for now.

The reasons I hate Biden... let me count what weighs most in the equation. Primarily, I hate Biden because he would lose to Trump, without a fucking doubt. The fact that he's running purely on Obama sentimentalism when Obama doesn't even endorse him is all the evidence you should need, but people are slow to clue in, since Biden's voters pay the least attention to the campaign, according to the polls. The climate crisis demands major action immediately, and if a bunch of fucking boomers and fiscal conservatives put us on a path to another 4 years of Trump because Biden was their safety blanket... that's my nightmare scenario. Deval Patrick and Mike Bloomberg sure don't think Biden has what it takes to beat Trump.

I think Buttigieg is probably just as shitty as Biden, but at least Buttigieg isn't much of a threat to win, so I hate him less. But he's just as sure as Biden would be to lose to Trump given his own weaknesses, so they're close. I think Andrew Yang is worst of the bunch, and phoniest, and just as corrupt as Biden and Buttigieg, AND he takes from gullible would-be Sanders voters who are desperate for the $1000/mth, but don't realize it's a trick to strip entitlements. Hopefully Yang blows through his cash quick and drops out early. Given his early ad buy, and early pivot to looking very traditional and uninspiring, I'm optimistic.

[Teenwolf]

Looks like Warren thinks Med4All needs to happen incrementally with several bills. Does her way make it more doable to get something done? Fast tracking improvements many can agree on first makes sense to me. All or nothing may end up with nothing.

https://www.politico.com/amp/news/20...for-all-071152

Breaking implementation into several pieces means she's kicking it way down the road. Also, introducing a public option, I've heard would be a disaster. Because insurance companies would tighten up and force all of the high cost people into the public option, it would explode in cost, and likely lead people to say "well, we tried public funded health care, it didn't work! We got hosed!" Since Warren has said the insurance companies deserve a seat at the table in negotiating the transition, she would let them rig the game to explode like I lay out... so yeah, very predictable to see her delaying implementation. She's now placing Medicare for All at the end of her 1st term, and only after many pre-conditions have been met... Good luck with that!

[Teenwolf]

Nate Silver on Elizabeth Warren's new health care proposal: "Warren's language here is really not that far from Buttigieg's "former" position on M4A, which is that the public option would naturally lead to a transition to full M4A once the public saw the benefits of it."

Another: "This seems like a pretty big hedge by Warren on M4A. Especially since "third year in office" means after a mid-term, in which Democrats (like almost all parties in their first mid-term after winning the White House) are very likely to have lost seats."

Think of it this way. If you have poor and costly sick people on a public option, and its severely underfunded, costs exploding, does that make people want M4A? Now think about Sanders' plan. The first phase of his rollout is age 55-64, no means testing. When a program is universal, it's nearly impossible to take away. That's why Sanders' plan has a chance and Warren's doesn't. Warren's plan is now the original Buttigieg plan... now Buttigieg is fully against M4A. That should scare you.

[Teenwolf]

One final component to add, Sanders tweets in the last 24 hrs:

"We know that there are ample opportunities for politicians to compromise on Medicare for All, and we know, having worked with Senator Sanders before, that he won't compromise when people's health is at stake." –Deborah Burger, Co-President @NationalNurses" (one of a few tweets recognizing the nurses' union endorsement)

"In my first week as president, we will introduce Medicare for All legislation."

I hope Sanders can make the distinction in next week's debate.

[Sour Masher]

I find your faith and trust in the political system more disturbing than anything. The fact you dont see money as a corrupting influence... you believe that the Koch brothers spend tens of millions of dollars on political think tanks and super PAC's... as a reward system for the politicians who happen to be pursuing policies beneficial to them? Correct me if I've misconstrued what you've said, because that's absolutely crazy. I'm sure I could find articles that connect campaign contributions to legislation. We just need to set that aside for now.

The reasons I hate Biden... let me count what weighs most in the equation. Primarily, I hate Biden because he would lose to Trump, without a fucking doubt. The fact that he's running purely on Obama sentimentalism when Obama doesn't even endorse him is all the evidence you should need, but people are slow to clue in, since Biden's voters pay the least attention to the campaign, according to the polls. The climate crisis demands major action immediately, and if a bunch of fucking boomers and fiscal conservatives put us on a path to another 4 years of Trump because Biden was their safety blanket... that's my nightmare scenario. Deval Patrick and Mike Bloomberg sure don't think Biden has what it takes to beat Trump.

I think Buttigieg is probably just as shitty as Biden, but at least Buttigieg isn't much of a threat to win, so I hate him less. But he's just as sure as Biden would be to lose to Trump given his own weaknesses, so they're close. I think Andrew Yang is worst of the bunch, and phoniest, and just as corrupt as Biden and Buttigieg, AND he takes from gullible would-be Sanders voters who are desperate for the $1000/mth, but don't realize it's a trick to strip entitlements. Hopefully Yang blows through his cash quick and drops out early. Given his early ad buy, and early pivot to looking very traditional and uninspiring, I'm optimistic.

To clarify, I said most politicians believe first, then eagerly court and take money from interests that want someone with those beliefs in office, because those beliefs serve them. I said most, because I have seen some politicians who don't seem to have any core beliefs at all and are happy to support whoever gives them the most money. But this is a chicken-egg argument. You seem to think every politician does a calculation on which ideology will provide them the most campaign funds and then they align themselves with that side. I think it is more complicated than that, and in most cases, underlying core beliefs play a factor in where they align. And again, I'm not suggesting people give politicians money as a reward. They give it to them, because they want them to win and to continue to support their interests and beliefs. We both agree that money is a corrupting influence. It certainly sways people within their general belief system, and completely puts in the pocket of special interests those with no belief system and just a lust for power. No doubt.

We also agree on Biden on a lot of things. The main differences are that I do not hate the man for running, and I do not think Hunter Biden trading on his family name to get a job he wasn't qualified for is Joe Biden's sin. I don't think it is the major story right now. I think that is Trump threatening the Ukraine into attacking his political rival (and on that note, Trump seems to think Biden is a threat, or he wouldn't have done this). I don't think Joe Biden is any worse morally than any other politicians. His stances on the issues and his electability or another matter, and the reasons I am not supporting him. But he seems to hold his beliefs sincerely, and I do not hate him for that or for trying to get elected. Now, if all his supporters continue t support him blindly short term only to change their minds later because they pay attention too late, I will resent them, for sure.

[Sour Masher]

I know TW strongly disagrees with this Obama sentiment, that most pereuadable votes for the dems do not want a complete tear down of existing systems. I tend to agree with it. Big change is scary to a lot of folks. Anyone have thoughts on which strategy is better in 2020? https://www.foxnews.com/politics/oba...en-sanders.amp

[The Feral Slasher]

I know TW strongly disagrees with this Obama sentiment, that most pereuadable votes for the dems do not want a complete tear down of existing systems. I tend to agree with it. Big change is scary to a lot of folks. Anyone have thoughts on which strategy is better in 2020? https://www.foxnews.com/politics/oba...en-sanders.amp

If Donald Trump said what Obama did every Democrat in America would have disagreed

[Sour Masher]

If Donald Trump said what Obama did every Democrat in America would have disagreed

Donald Trump would never say what Obama said. He'd just say Sanders was a commie socialist who wants to take everyone's money and freedom, and Warren is a Pocahantas version of the same.

The truth will be determined by the votes. If Sanders or Warren can not only win the primary but the general in convincing fashion, maybe it will signal to the moderate Dems (the majority of the party) that it is time for this to happen. I have strong doubts that even if one of them beats Trump either will be able to pass Med4All as currently articulated in one shot. I just don't see them getting the votes needed. No Repubs will vote for it, and most blue dogs won't either.

My bet is that no matter who gets elected (including Sanders), we end up, best case with a more modest solution to this problem, but it will be stronger/better than the ACA was, which means we will be moving toward more coverage for more people. It won't be seen as a win by progressives short term, but I think history will see it as an important step toward the universal coverage I do think we will inevitably get to. The ACA was much maligned, but it was an attempt, and it helped a lot of people. I think something this big with so much opposition in the country from big money movers will have to be incremental.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I disagree with Obama's statement. And I agree Trump would have been his usual idiot self trying to say the same thing.

Here's what I don't get after reading several pages of posts-

Why isn't honesty and integrity the most important factor in electing people to office?

Especially to the highest office in the land.

Would you be OK with your daughter dating a guy who's honesty and integrity were obviously suspect because you agreed with his opinions on certain subjects?

Would you chose that guy over another man who's integrity and ethics were unquestioned, but you we're on the opposite side of things politically?

Of course you wouldn't--so why accept less in those you support po9ilitically.

To me--Being able to trust someone in office is more important than policy.

I'd vote across the aisle (and have) for someone I believe in even if their position on things wasn't in line with mine.

Doing otherwise, in my opinion, is a kind of moral bankruptcy.

This is why I am voting, supporting Sanders--He's one of the few, if not the only, person running for president who isn't a windsock, who's integrity can't be honestly called into question. I believe him, Trust him and his policies are secondary to that.