Election 2020

[Teenwolf]

Joe Biden yesterday with one of his most clear cognitive faceplants of the current campaign. Rambling, stammering, and... he forgot Obama's MF name! How in the fuck does Biden forget Obama's name?!

"...because they invaded another country, and annexed a significant portion called Crimea. He's saying that it was President... my boss... is his fault."

Biden cannot be allowed to face Trump. Period. End of story.

[B-Fly]

I don't agree with TW about Warren, though I do have concerns regarding how she'd fare vs Trump, he'd hammer home the Pocahontas thing and I don;t know if she's ballsy enough to smash him back. That's what I feel will need to happen in the General debates--Soomeone who will pull no punches, not sink to a Trump level low, but play hardball. And I am just not sure Warren will do that.

See, and I think she'd smash back at Trump harder than Bernie would. I've found Bernie to generally be averse to going personal, instead trying to pivot back to a passionate recitation of his themes. Sometimes it works very well for him, but I'm not sure it would against Trump.

[Teenwolf]

See, and I think she'd smash back at Trump harder than Bernie would. I've found Bernie to generally be averse to going personal, instead trying to pivot back to a passionate recitation of his themes. Sometimes it works very well for him, but I'm not sure it would against Trump.

You realize he's been reticent to attack fellow Democrats because he has the entire media ready to attack him, don't you? You realize his rhetoric vs Trump would change dramatically from his rhetoric against Biden or Warren?

Bernie has already done a better job of attacking Trump directly than Warren has. He can get back working class voters that Warren cannot, and its proven in the types of voters each are attracting.

[Sour Masher]

Joe Biden yesterday with one of his most clear cognitive faceplants of the current campaign. Rambling, stammering, and... he forgot Obama's MF name! How in the fuck does Biden forget Obama's name?!

"...because they invaded another country, and annexed a significant portion called Crimea. He's saying that it was President... my boss... is his fault."

Biden cannot be allowed to face Trump. Period. End of story.

I like Biden as a person, and began thinking he might be the safest choice to beat Trump, even if I didn't agree with him on everything. But at this point, I have real concerns about his sharpness and real concerns from the polling not showing that other people have those concerns.

ETA: I guess Biden's numbers show that there are no viable moderate/centrist alternatives. I wish there were, but no one else is getting traction.

[Teenwolf]

Very good conversation about the differences between Warren and Sanders. Ryan Grim on the panel is awesome, he's a really smart guy. Saagar Enjeti is the conservative host, and he's probably the smartest Republican talking head I know of. They talk about the different support bases for each, and the paths for each to win.

There's also a section near the end about the Teenwolf-style pissed off Sanders voter, and their willingness to cannibalize the competition. Ryan Grim basically says these voters are angry because they've seen a phony hope and change campaign before, and they're not interested in another Obama type of centrist governor.

This stuff is so much better than CNN or MSNBC. So much more depth and no propaganda.

[Sour Masher]

You realize he's been reticent to attack fellow Democrats because he has the entire media ready to attack him, don't you? You realize his rhetoric vs Trump would change dramatically from his rhetoric against Biden or Warren?

Bernie has already done a better job of attacking Trump directly than Warren has. He can get back working class voters that Warren cannot, and its proven in the types of voters each are attracting.

While I prefer Warren's more nuanced and, I think, more thoughtful approaches to many issues, I agree with TW that Sanders potentially appeals to and steals from some of Trump's voters much more than Warren would. There are some Trump voters that simply bought into his promises of "draining the swamp" and making government work for them. He didn't deliver. He has done the opposite, and there is opportunity for someone like Sanders, who talks to those folks, especially poorer folks, in plain, simple terms that works. I think the breakdown of demographics of support and his speech and debate style make him the best progressive match up for Trump. I still like Warren best though, and I would hope she would beat Trump too.

[In the Corn]

Trump vs Sanders = The Liar vs The Screamer

Someone needs to work with Bernie on his deliver. He seems so andry about everything.

Amy Klobuchar has been home the past week, and her constituents have let her know they want her to be more aggressive in the debates. If she won't listen to the home team, she has no prayer.

[Sour Masher]

Trump vs Sanders = The Liar vs The Screamer

Someone needs to work with Bernie on his deliver. He seems so andry about everything.

Amy Klobuchar has been home the past week, and her constituents have let her know they want her to be more aggressive in the debates. If she won't listen to the home team, she has no prayer.

At this point, she seems like such a long shot. I wish she or another viable moderate emerges, because Biden seems to have lost a step mentally and voters haven't noticed yet, but they will in the general.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Trump vs Sanders = The Liar vs The Screamer

Someone needs to work with Bernie on his deliver. He seems so andry about everything.

Amy Klobuchar has been home the past week, and her constituents have let her know they want her to be more aggressive in the debates. If she won't listen to the home team, she has no prayer.

I have never seen bernie as a screamer--He's emphatic and passionate from where I sit. He also has a lot to be concerned about--things are bad and getting worse and no one is doing a thing about it (nor have they really for decades) Thus the need for being emphatic.

If some see that as screaming, well I guess I can see it that way if I really work at it, but I'd have to really work at it.

[GwynnInTheHall]

While I prefer Warren's more nuanced and, I think, more thoughtful approaches to many issues, I agree with TW that Sanders potentially appeals to and steals from some of Trump's voters much more than Warren would. There are some Trump voters that simply bought into his promises of "draining the swamp" and making government work for them. He didn't deliver. He has done the opposite, and there is opportunity for someone like Sanders, who talks to those folks, especially poorer folks, in plain, simple terms that works. I think the breakdown of demographics of support and his speech and debate style make him the best progressive match up for Trump. I still like Warren best though, and I would hope she would beat Trump too.

I also think Warren is more vulnerable to Trump's tactics, in that she's given him much more ammo than Bernie and even though it might not seem like much her Native American Gaffe could go a long way against her as is the fact they'll trot out the She's a woman and therefore too emotional BS yet again. And unfortunately there are still people in this country who won't vote for a woman for President.

I don't see many soft spots for Trump to go after Bernie, which to me--could make the difference in the General.

BTW, I have stated before I think Sanders/Gabbard would be a great ticket as I believe the country will accept/vote for a woman in the VP slot, but would Warren ever consider running VP with Bernie should he get the nod?

[Teenwolf]

I have never seen bernie as a screamer--He's emphatic and passionate from where I sit. He also has a lot to be concerned about--things are bad and getting worse and no one is doing a thing about it (nor have they really for decades) Thus the need for being emphatic.

If some see that as screaming, well I guess I can see it that way if I really work at it, but I'd have to really work at it.

If you watch any right wing media, they have pathetic complaints about Sanders. 1) he's angry and screaming (uh, Trump?), 2) he's a hypocrite because he won't voluntarily pay more in taxes before he changes the law (??), and also a hypocrite because he flies in airplanes, 3) Venezuela.

I think right wingers would have an easier time getting behind a more brick-through-the-window style Sanders candidate than a policy wonk. Republicans are so distrustful of educated elite Liberals like Warren. Maybe being a former Republican would help a bit, but I doubt it. Sanders' economic populism and messaging is closer to Trump's unfulfilled promises ("no more stupid wars", "drain the swamp", etc.) That's why the Democratic establishment is against him, they dont want to end the wars or the corruption. They are supporting Warren because she wouldn't do those things. Pretty simple.

[DMT]

I also think Warren is more vulnerable to Trump's tactics, in that she's given him much more ammo than Bernie and even though it might not seem like much her Native American Gaffe could go a long way against her as is the fact they'll trot out the She's a woman and therefore too emotional BS yet again. And unfortunately there are still people in this country who won't vote for a woman for President.

I don't see many soft spots for Trump to go after Bernie, which to me--could make the difference in the General.

BTW, I have stated before I think Sanders/Gabbard would be a great ticket as I believe the country will accept/vote for a woman in the VP slot, but would Warren ever consider running VP with Bernie should he get the nod?

Being a socialist isn't a soft spot?!

And there's no chance of a Sanders/Warren ticket, or vice versa.

[DMT]

If you watch any right wing media, they have pathetic complaints about Sanders. 1) he's angry and screaming (uh, Trump?), 2) he's a hypocrite because he won't voluntarily pay more in taxes before he changes the law (??), and also a hypocrite because he flies in airplanes, 3) Venezuela.

I think right wingers would have an easier time getting behind a more brick-through-the-window style Sanders candidate than a policy wonk. Republicans are so distrustful of educated elite Liberals like Warren. Maybe being a former Republican would help a bit, but I doubt it. Sanders' economic populism and messaging is closer to Trump's unfulfilled promises ("no more stupid wars", "drain the swamp", etc.) That's why the Democratic establishment is against him, they dont want to end the wars or the corruption. They are supporting Warren because she wouldn't do those things. Pretty simple.

This is nonsense.

[B-Fly]

I don't see many soft spots for Trump to go after Bernie, which to me--could make the difference in the General.

Really? He self-labeled himself a Socialist to such a degree that he was not even running or serving as a Democrat. He's the oldest candidate and he looks old and disheveled. He's Jewish and stereotypically nebbishy in his look, style and diction. I think between Trump and the right-wing PACs and talk radio/media they would have a field day with those "soft spots". On the Jewish thing alone, much like Mitt Romney's Mormonism in 2012, I think there are a lot of people who wouldn't necessarily articulate or tell pollsters that it's a problem for them, but for whom it would potentially have a big impact in the voting booth. There's a reason why this country has never elected a non-Christian (and only once even so much as elected a Catholic) to the presidency.

I think that a President Sanders would be a very good thing if we could get him over the finish line, although not, to my mind, as good as a President Warren, but I think it's a bit nuts to suggest that he has few "soft spots" on which he would be vulnerable in a general election.

[revo]

Really? He self-labeled himself a Socialist to such a degree that he was not even running or serving as a Democrat. He's the oldest candidate and he looks old and disheveled. He's Jewish and stereotypically nebbishy in his look, style and diction. I think between Trump and the right-wing PACs and talk radio/media they would have a field day with those "soft spots". On the Jewish thing alone, much like Mitt Romney's Mormonism in 2012, I think there are a lot of people who wouldn't necessarily articulate or tell pollsters that it's a problem for them, but for whom it would potentially have a big impact in the voting booth. There's a reason why this country has never elected a non-Christian (and only once even so much as elected a Catholic) to the presidency.

I think that a President Sanders would be a very good thing if we could get him over the finish line, although not, to my mind, as good as a President Warren, but I think it's a bit nuts to suggest that he has few "soft spots" on which he would be vulnerable in a general election.

Sanders will never win because of exactly this. The fact he's Jewish is his major downfall (and yes, I'm Jewish). It'll never happen.

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In major polling news, the latest Michigan poll shows Trump getting clobbered in a key battleground state. Biden, as usual, has the widest margin:

Michigan: Trump vs. Biden	EPIC-MRA	Biden 51, Trump 41	[B]Biden +10[/B]
Michigan: Trump vs. Sanders	EPIC-MRA	Sanders 48, Trump 44	Sanders +4
Michigan: Trump vs. Warren	EPIC-MRA	Warren 49, Trump 43	Warren +6
Michigan: Trump vs. Harris	EPIC-MRA	Harris 46, Trump 43	Harris +3