Election 2020

[Steve 2.0]

frae, your super pac value just went from $1.73 to $1.37, losing over 20% in a nanosecond ... I think there's corruption in your administration ...

I'm nothing if not corrupt.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I can’t tell my super pac how to invest their funds, this poor money management cannot be tied to me or my campaign.

I blame Obama

[frae]

I blame Obama

I blame Hillary

[Sour Masher]

As a point of clarification, I'm not making any leap to white supremacy. I view white supremacy as the status quo. His support of the status quo has been damaging to his community. But I'm not making any special claim of racist intent on his part, merely the effects of his inaction.

I agree that the situation is frustrating and wrong, but I also agree with Frae--how was he supposed to handle it differently as a mayor? The tapes were illegal. The part of me that cares more about right and the law (that is most of me), says screw that, release them. But that is me as an average Joe. If I was the mayor and I was sworn in to follow the law and protect the city from lawsuits that could cripple the community, I don't know. He was between a rock and a hard place there. Like Frae, I have appreciated and respect how he hasn' tried to hide from this like many politicians would. I still like him as a VP. I don't know if he has the experience or chops to be the top guy right now. As you have pointed out, he is more abstract talking points than specific plans. But man, what a contrast he is to Trump in terms of taking responsibility and handling tough questions, sometimes from those shouting at him in anger, and he takes it like a true professional. A Warren-Mayor Pete ticket would be okay with me at this point.

[Sour Masher]

Getting back to my point about Sanders' student debt forgiveness plan and how he says he wants to pay for it vs Warren's, the more I read about it and after seeing what Revo says about what it would do to retirement accounts, it strikes me as amazing that Bernie supporters here don't see how scary this is and how it extends to Bernie's whole ideology. I have always loved Bernie as a left wing voice for change, and I think he is to be admired for speaking truths to the problems we have had as a country for years and being consistent in calling for action on these things. He has been great in the role for years. But his approach to most things is ham-fisted, frightfully simplistic, and incredibly and often needlessly costly. He has more charisma and energizes voters much more than Warren, but Warren seems nearly as progressives and vastly more practical and thoughtful. I do wish she had a bit more Bernie in her on the debate stage, though. I very much worry her wonky ways would be beat by the simple jingoism of Trump. The cynic in me thinks Bernie's super simple mantras of debt is bad, free everything good would play better to the masses than Warren's wonky approach. But then again, if Warren could just be more engaging, I think most centrist would find her way more appealing than Bernie, because her policies make more sense, would cost way less, and often include creative ways to pay for them that don't negatively impact many tax payers.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Getting back to my point about Sanders' student debt forgiveness plan and how he says he wants to pay for it vs Warren's, the more I read about it and after seeing what Revo says about what it would do to retirement accounts, it strikes me as amazing that Bernie supporters here don't see how scary this is and how it extends to Bernie's whole ideology. I have always loved Bernie as a left wing voice for change, and I think he is to be admired for speaking truths to the problems we have had as a country for years and being consistent in calling for action on these things. He has been great in the role for years. But his approach to most things is ham-fisted, frightfully simplistic, and incredibly and often needlessly costly. He has more charisma and energizes voters much more than Warren, but Warren seems nearly as progressives and vastly more practical and thoughtful. I do wish she had a bit more Bernie in her on the debate stage, though. I very much worry her wonky ways would be beat by the simple jingoism of Trump. The cynic in me thinks Bernie's super simple mantras of debt is bad, free everything good would play better to the masses than Warren's wonky approach. But then again, if Warren could just be more engaging, I think most centrist would find her way more appealing than Bernie, because her policies make more sense, would cost way less, and often include creative ways to pay for them that don't negatively impact many tax payers.

I believe it comes down to what kind of society he believe we should live in and whether or not you agree with his vision of how it should be.

He's fundamentally a socialist. IE. He thinks the greater good is more important than the individual. which includes (In his mind) Free College, Livable wages, Universal healthcare and now Student debt forgiveness--all of this he'd tax the rich to pay for. The proposed tax on WS transactions would be 5 cents on every $100 to me, that seems innocuous. Apparently there are people with a lot of money invested out there I currently have about $2,000 in my 401K so for me-- not so much. So I struggle to see what the big deal is really all about. I'll take the word of Revo that it would be a problem which would affect the Market, but as I indicated--the market doesn't affect me much.

He's fundamentally a pacifist. IE. He thinks spending on the needy is more important than spending on War/Defense. he'd gladly take money from defense to pay for his programs if it weren't such an off limits subject for congress.

Warren's plan would require an overhaul to the Tax code, quickly reversing the Trump cuts and adding on a significant tax increase to the wealthy.

Here's MY solution.

Allow Student loans to be dismissed through bankruptcy like any other debt. If the court find you make enough to pay for it (Ch13) you pay what you can and be done with it. If not, you start free and clear and can rebuild your credit over time (Ch7)

I don't necessarily believe there's an easy answer to any of this, but if you're going to fix the problem, you might as well get it all done in one fell swoop, incremental solutions only allow people time to come up with ways to 1. take advantage of the situation. 2. Find ways to avoid having to pay for the solution (if there's a cost) and 3. Continue to kick the can down the road rendering any attempt at a solution ineffective.

If you've a better Idea, I'm all ears because I'm sure mines probably problematic as well.

[Sour Masher]

The bankruptcy solution makes a lot more sense to me that paying off everyone's debt, even those who leveraged that education into jobs making 100s of thousands a year at the expense of middle class 401ks. I like it and I imagine centrist could get on board with it even more than Warren's proposal. It would be a much more modest proposal, as I don't image too many folks would go into bankruptcy if they could help it, and rich folks like our POTUS do it all the time, so it is hard to argue poorer folks shouldn't do it too, if they need to.

Back to Bernie's plan, know Bernie wants to change this going forward, but wiping away student loan debt now means giving a big break to many folks who are making a lot more than than some of the folks who will be paying for this. Think of the guy making 50k a year in a trade, who didn't go to college, but has worked hard to have retirement savings. I know people just like this--plumbers, A/C repairmen and the like. They came from poorer backgrounds like me, but they were wiser than me--they didn't go to college and rack up student loan debt (I only took out 10k in loans so paid mine off already, but fwiw, my wife still owes around 30k, and yes, it has slowed us in many ways). They took up a trade and started saving for retirement a full decade before me. Now, years later, you are asking them to help pay to do away with my wife's debt, even though now, because of those loans, my wife makes more than they do. It doesn't strike me as very fair.

ETA: Does ANYONE here really think it is fair to ask a trademan making 50k a year to help pay off the debt of a doctor making 250k a year? Most of the people I know with the highest student loan debt are doctor's. Medical school is crazy expensive, for sure. And I totally agree we need to fix the ever rising costs of higher ed as a whole. I could not have afforded to go to college if I were going today. But Bernie's solution is just unfair. asking those making less to pay for loans taken by those now making way more, I'm sure, is not what he intended. But that is what he is doing, and it again shows how complicated problems don't have simple solutions.

[GwynnInTheHall]

The bankruptcy solution makes a lot more sense to me that paying off everyone's debt, even those who leveraged that education into jobs making 100s of thousands a year at the expense of middle class 401ks. I like it and I imagine centrist could get on board with it even more than Warren's proposal. It would be a much more modest proposal, as I don't image too many folks would go into bankruptcy if they could help it, and rich folks like our POTUS do it all the time, so it is hard to argue poorer folks shouldn't do it too, if they need to.

Back to Bernie's plan, know Bernie wants to change this going forward, but wiping away student loan debt now means giving a big break to many folks who are making a lot more than than some of the folks who will be paying for this. Think of the guy making 50k a year in a trade, who didn't go to college, but has worked hard to have retirement savings. I know people just like this--plumbers, A/C repairmen and the like. They came from poorer backgrounds like me, but they were wiser than me--they didn't go to college and rack up student loan debt (I only took out 10k in loans so paid mine off already, but fwiw, my wife still owes around 30k, and yes, it has slowed us in many ways). They took up a trade and started saving for retirement a full decade before me. Now, years later, you are asking them to help pay to do away with my wife's debt, even though now, because of those loans, my wife makes more than they do. It doesn't strike me as very fair.

ETA: Does ANYONE here really think it is fair to ask a trademan making 50k a year to help pay off the debt of a doctor making 250k a year? Most of the people I know with the highest student loan debt are doctor's. Medical school is crazy expensive, for sure. And I totally agree we need to fix the ever rising costs of higher ed as a whole. I could not have afforded to go to college if I were going today. But Bernie's solution is just unfair. asking those making less to pay for loans taken by those now making way more, I'm sure, is not what he intended. But that is what he is doing, and it again shows how complicated problems don't have simple solutions.

I can absolutely see your point and yes, it is unfair. Bernie's plan is unfair, Warren's plan is unfair, even MY plan is unfair. Any solution is going to be unfair to someone somewhere. It's complicated, as we've both said. I guess it's our job to choose the least painful path to fix a problem we've all ignored for too long. At least we've admitted this is a problem and that, as they say, is the first step. Maybe starting the conversation and tossing out solutions, good or bad, is where we start. What's important is where we go from here. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

[Teenwolf]

The bankruptcy solution makes a lot more sense to me that paying off everyone's debt, even those who leveraged that education into jobs making 100s of thousands a year at the expense of middle class 401ks. I like it and I imagine centrist could get on board with it even more than Warren's proposal. It would be a much more modest proposal, as I don't image too many folks would go into bankruptcy if they could help it, and rich folks like our POTUS do it all the time, so it is hard to argue poorer folks shouldn't do it too, if they need to.

Back to Bernie's plan, know Bernie wants to change this going forward, but wiping away student loan debt now means giving a big break to many folks who are making a lot more than than some of the folks who will be paying for this. Think of the guy making 50k a year in a trade, who didn't go to college, but has worked hard to have retirement savings. I know people just like this--plumbers, A/C repairmen and the like. They came from poorer backgrounds like me, but they were wiser than me--they didn't go to college and rack up student loan debt (I only took out 10k in loans so paid mine off already, but fwiw, my wife still owes around 30k, and yes, it has slowed us in many ways). They took up a trade and started saving for retirement a full decade before me. Now, years later, you are asking them to help pay to do away with my wife's debt, even though now, because of those loans, my wife makes more than they do. It doesn't strike me as very fair.

ETA: Does ANYONE here really think it is fair to ask a trademan making 50k a year to help pay off the debt of a doctor making 250k a year? Most of the people I know with the highest student loan debt are doctor's. Medical school is crazy expensive, for sure. And I totally agree we need to fix the ever rising costs of higher ed as a whole. I could not have afforded to go to college if I were going today. But Bernie's solution is just unfair. asking those making less to pay for loans taken by those now making way more, I'm sure, is not what he intended. But that is what he is doing, and it again shows how complicated problems don't have simple solutions.

I went to university to get a teacher's degree. When I saw up close the type of work life teacher's had, I took my bachelors degree in English and abandoned teaching. I switched to landscaping, working for companies for several years, now running my own business for the 2nd time... it's still taken time to make decent money. Only once did I make over $50K, but I'm projecting to get back in the $50k range this year. I would absolutely pay higher taxes, or a TSX exchange levy that hurt my wife's pension, or whatever it takes to subsidize full debt repayment in conjunction with free post secondary across Canada. It's not quite as big of a problem up here, but it's still bad.

[Sour Masher]

I went to university to get a teacher's degree. When I saw up close the type of work life teacher's had, I took my bachelors degree in English and abandoned teaching. I switched to landscaping, working for companies for several years, now running my own business for the 2nd time... it's still taken time to make decent money. Only once did I make over $50K, but I'm projecting to get back in the $50k range this year. I would absolutely pay higher taxes, or a TSX exchange levy that hurt my wife's pension, or whatever it takes to subsidize full debt repayment in conjunction with free post secondary across Canada. It's not quite as big of a problem up here, but it's still bad.

Ha, I too have English degrees, but stuck with teaching at the college level. Regarding landscaping, I remember the business name thread. Has that helped at all? I am a little surprised landscaping in your area isn't more lucrative. In my area it sure can be. The guy I call to clear my super long driveway when I can't get my snowblower working makes mad cash. I know cuz his ex wife tried to rent the same rental we were leaving a few years back and she talked about how much money she was getting from him. He was doing very well. We also got a mulching bill by mistake that was supposed to go to our neighbor. I freaked out for a second. It was a 4k bill! I made sure to cross off our house search list places with big steep mulched front yards after that.

In any event, even though that guy makes more money than me, I'd feel bad if he had to pay some of my wife's remaining student loan debt. We made our choices. I ate ramen noodles and lived super cheap not to get too much debt. My wife lived larger and as a result, we will still be paying off her debt when I am 50. And it is way worse now than when we went to college. But I still don't think wiping all debt from everyone at the expense of often poorer folks who didn't go to college is the right solution.

[revo]

If bankruptcy erased college debt, why wouldn’t everyone declare bankruptcy upon graduation? They have no assets, only debt. What would they have to lose? A 20-year old used car and a bong?

[Sour Masher]

If bankruptcy erased college debt, why wouldn’t everyone declare bankruptcy upon graduation? They have no assets, only debt. What would they have to lose? A 20-year old used car and a bong?

I have never done it, but isn't your credit screwed for 7 years? Seems like not something you'd want to do if you could help it. No house, no good deal on cars etc.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I have never done it, but isn't your credit screwed for 7 years? Seems like not something you'd want to do if you could help it. No house, no good deal on cars etc.

It would essentially be free college which is a Bernie base

[revo]

I have never done it, but isn't your credit screwed for 7 years? Seems like not something you'd want to do if you could help it. No house, no good deal on cars etc.

$100k-$200k in college loans vs. a good deal on a car? Seems like an easy decision. I don’t know of many recent college grads who are looking to buy a house either. I would have to guess this is why student loans are protected from bankruptcy court.

[BTW, I’m all for free college as I have three sons’ education to pay for.]

[Sour Masher]

It would essentially be free college which is a Bernie base

Is it really that easy to get approved for bankruptcy? I had a friend who tried and got rejected, so I figured it wasn't as easy as getting medical weed in Cali. I guess if you are a recent college grad you could sandbag and not get a job for as long as it took to file and get approved. IDK, it wouldn't have crossed my mind. My take was a took the loans, I should pay them back. I imagine at least some folks would feel the same, at least if that education actually translated to good jobs. I guess it would enable a bunch of humanities majors to do it. They wouldn't have much to lose. Not sure if folks who got practical degrees leading to 6 figure jobs would.