Election 2020

[GwynnInTheHall]

The lesson, people? This time around, eat your bananas in a more timely fashion.

It ain't easy bein Green..................

[Sour Masher]

The difference between Sanders and Warren on student loan debt forgiveness is yet another example of my frustration with easy to understand sound bite positions by Sanders that come from a good place but don't make sense when compared with the more thoughtful approach Warren takes. Rather than a sweeping debt forgiveness for all that would cost much more, Warren proposes one that caps the forgiveness at different amounts based on income. 50k of forgiveness if you make under 100k, and less if you make up to 250k. None if you make more than that. Makes so much more sense, as it ends up costing way less to do, and targets those most in need.

If Sanders wasn't a legit contender, I think Warren would be labeled too radically progressive. But him being in the field with his absolute (and more expensive) solutions to some of our nation's biggest problems makes her seem more measured and palatable to centrist voters, I think. I still worry about her electability and how she would fair head to head against Trump, but I continue to be impressed by how she offers real, specific, thoughtful, very progressive, but not needlessly costly policies and plans. She is winning me over as my first choice.

[GwynnInTheHall]

The difference between Sanders and Warren on student loan debt forgiveness is yet another example of my frustration with easy to understand sound bite positions by Sanders that come from a good place but don't make sense when compared with the more thoughtful approach Warren takes. Rather than a sweeping debt forgiveness for all that would cost much more, Warren proposes one that caps the forgiveness at different amounts based on income. 50k of forgiveness if you make under 100k, and less if you make up to 250k. None if you make more than that. Makes so much more sense, as it ends up costing way less to do, and targets those most in need.

If Sanders wasn't a legit contender, I think Warren would be labeled too radically progressive. But him being in the field with his absolute (and more expensive) solutions to some of our nation's biggest problems makes her seem more measured and palatable to centrist voters, I think. I still worry about her electability and how she would fair head to head against Trump, but I continue to be impressed by how she offers real, specific, thoughtful, very progressive, but not needlessly costly policies and plans. She is winning me over as my first choice.

Problem is that there are millions of people who's student loan debt have doubled due to interest and penalties. So does Warren's proposal forgive the actual monies borrowed and any interest/penalties accrued? If not, it does nothing for someone who borrowed 40-50k and now owes 100k.

If they couldn't pay the original balance, they won't be able to pay the remaining balance. It doesn't address the problem for those who need it most.

[Judge Jude]

'old millennials' who have paid off 6 figures in debt, having made many life sacrifices to get there - it's just human nature to say, 'what about me?'

that's even more true because even if we buy into the idea that "who knew this was a mistake in the mid-2000s" - with some justification - within the past 5 years or more it should have been pretty obvious that so many loans were sucker bets.

so both plans want to reward young people who much more easily should have known better - while leaving those a decade older holding the entire bag.

clearly there is a massive problem - and I agree that Warren's plan is more realistic of the two. but there's no point in not discussing the elephant in the room.

[GwynnInTheHall]

'old millennials' who have paid off 6 figures in debt, having made many life sacrifices to get there - it's just human nature to say, 'what about me?'

that's even more true because even if we buy into the idea that "who knew this was a mistake in the mid-2000s" - with some justification - within the past 5 years or more it should have been pretty obvious that so many loans were sucker bets.

so both plans want to reward young people who much more easily should have known better - while leaving those a decade older holding the entire bag.

clearly there is a massive problem - and I agree that Warren's plan is more realistic of the two. but there's no point in not discussing the elephant in the room.

What is your solution then?

[Teenwolf]

I'm an "old millenial", 36. I paid off all of my student loans, I think only totaling $20K or so, as i lived at home through university. Hard to remember now, but it took about 7 years to pay off. Took me until i was 32 to get a down payment and buy a house (mostly through my wife's funding to be honest). Anyway, a major factor for millenial student loan debt is that it sidelines them from the housing market into later and later ages, and it depresses the market. So I think seniors biggest investment (their homes) would see a sharp rise as buying a house would become affordable much earlier for post secondary grads. That housing market support would seem to offset any costs absorbed through the wall street transfer tax that funds the debt cancellation plan. Just my take.

EDIT to add: I have zero hesitation about taking away the burden of crushing student loan debt for people just because I paid my own.

[Judge Jude]

thanks for that. interesting.

[Teenwolf]

Has anybody followed the controversy surrounding Buttigieg's handling of the South Bend police department? His history of protecting racist police seems to have backfired with this latest shooting (body cam turned off... officer had lengthy history of racism). Essentially, when it was revealed that many active members of the force were racists, with evidence, Buttigieg tried to fire the black police chief, but instead decided to demote him. Because that's how you address racism, sweep it under the rug. Sounds typical for Oregon.

Has anybody followed this story? Frae, please tell me you aren't still invested in Buttigieg?

[Teenwolf]

It amazes me that Obama, Hillary, etc. get the pass with the phrase, "My views have evolved on X subject." but Biden doesn't get the same pass.

If you ask me if my choices are Trump or Biden, whom am I voting for? I'll vote for Biden and not feel badly about it.

As my father said to me during the last election when I questioned him how he could vote for Trump, "I'm electing a President, not a Pope."

TW, what are you going to do if Biden gets the nod? Obviously, you can't vote (unless you drive to CA because I hear they let anyone in the state that day vote. ), but what is your reactioning going to be?

If Biden won the Democratic nomination, I'd absolutely vote for him over Trump or any third party nutjobs... unless that 3rd party nutjob was Sanders. If the DNC tries to screw Sanders again, I would vote 3rd party. But I would ultimately hope that Biden won and the 4 year sinking realization of what a POS he is would lead the country to revolt with AOC 2024. The young voters are crazy far left. When they take over, no Biden style politician will have a chance.

[revo]

I misread, it's 70% of all STUDENTS, my bad. So you are correct 13%+ have that debt. So my correlation was baseless.

Does anyone have a breakdown of income brackets and dollars invested in the market--including 401Ks et al? Then another income bracket vs student debt table? That might be a more accurate way to see how many of those in debt would be helping their own cause through Bernies plan and how many are going to get a free ride (which is why I assume most folks would be against a proposal like this)

"Since about 52% of U.S. households have a retirement account, according to the Federal Reserve, more than double the 22% of households with student debt, Mr. Sanders' plan could end up taxing half the country to forgive debt held by less than a quarter of Americans."

https://www.investmentnews.com/article/20190624/FREE/190629961/wall-street-lashes-out-at-bernie-sanders-plan-to-pay-off-student

[frae]

Has anybody followed the controversy surrounding Buttigieg's handling of the South Bend police department? His history of protecting racist police seems to have backfired with this latest shooting (body cam turned off... officer had lengthy history of racism). Essentially, when it was revealed that many active members of the force were racists, with evidence, Buttigieg tried to fire the black police chief, but instead decided to demote him. Because that's how you address racism, sweep it under the rug. Sounds typical for Oregon.

Has anybody followed this story? Frae, please tell me you aren't still invested in Buttigieg?

Here is why the first police chief got fire, he was apparently taping men in his own department illegally...Now did the officers deserve to go to? I don't know if that is a union issue that he as mayor could not demand.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/us/politics/buttigieg-black-police-chief-fired.html

As far as me still backing him did you watch how he took the blame for this? He was at a town hall where people were exceptionally upset and rightfully so but Pete didn't create race problems in American between the police and its citizenry and yet he had a town hall that he knew would be hard and he accepted blame. Here is a tweet with the quote and context of the question asked...

Pete Buttigieg after being asked directly about the failure of body cameras: "If anybody is trying to figure out who to hold responsible, the administration bought the technology, hired the officer and wrote the policy. So at the end of the day, I'm responsible."

If you are asking if I think that someone who was what 30 when he took over as mayor may not have handled the dynamic of how to deal with a black police chief who was doing something that was illegal disqualifies him from my support I do not. I enjoy that he is thoughtful and accountable about it. The people at the town hall want him to summarily fire people and he doesn't have the power to do that with the police union. There is a process to that and he isn't the final say.

All I can do is read articles now about an incredibly charged situation so it is hard to get a fair assessment of what blame goes the mayor's office and what goes to the police department.

[TranaGreg]

... The young voters are crazy far left. When they take over, no Biden style politician will have a chance.

I've been thinking about this as well. The big question is, as they move into the normal adult life phase will they retain those values or move more into the centre, as so often happens. I think it will depend on a ton of variables but will certainly be interesting to watch.

[Teenwolf]

"Since about 52% of U.S. households have a retirement account, according to the Federal Reserve, more than double the 22% of households with student debt, Mr. Sanders' plan could end up taxing half the country to forgive debt held by less than a quarter of Americans."
https://www.investmentnews.com/artic...ay-off-student

Question. Bernie's plan taxes each individual transaction. For retirement plans, the hit would be extremely minimal. The real losers would be wall street high-volume traders, right?

My 2nd question would then be: assuming Bernie's bill limited the amount of high-volume trading, would that not affect the revenue generated from the tax? Or would these traders simply adapt and pay the hit? Maybe it only cuts transactions 5%, maybe 40%... but I would want to see those projections factored in.

Also, what do you say to my point about debt burdened graduates putting off home buying into their late 30's and 40's suddenly having increased purchasing power, inflating the value of most retirees' biggest retirement asset, their home? I even saw this point brought up in a more conservative piece, I think from National Review. I'll find it later if I can.

[Teenwolf]

Here is why the first police chief got fire, he was apparently taping men in his own department illegally...Now did the officers deserve to go to? I don't know if that is a union issue that he as mayor could not demand.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/us/politics/buttigieg-black-police-chief-fired.html

As far as me still backing him did you watch how he took the blame for this? He was at a town hall where people were exceptionally upset and rightfully so but Pete didn't create race problems in American between the police and its citizenry and yet he had a town hall that he knew would be hard and he accepted blame. Here is a tweet with the quote and context of the question asked...

Pete Buttigieg after being asked directly about the failure of body cameras: "If anybody is trying to figure out who to hold responsible, the administration bought the technology, hired the officer and wrote the policy. So at the end of the day, I'm responsible."

If you are asking if I think that someone who was what 30 when he took over as mayor may not have handled the dynamic of how to deal with a black police chief who was doing something that was illegal disqualifies him from my support I do not. I enjoy that he is thoughtful and accountable about it. The people at the town hall want him to summarily fire people and he doesn't have the power to do that with the police union. There is a process to that and he isn't the final say.

All I can do is read articles now about an incredibly charged situation so it is hard to get a fair assessment of what blame goes the mayor's office and what goes to the police department.

I think his response is based on his realization of the possibility that it tanks his election chances more than anything. There have been several instances of questionable actions he took, the police chief firing isn't isolated. So while I accept that he may have regret, he supported non-intervention with a clearly racist police force. Part of Buttigieg's defense that the tapes of racist officers needed to be kept hidden is that it would jeopardize ongoing criminal proceedings from those racist officers cases... so I can only view him as supporting white supremacy every step of the way, whether he understood it or not.

[frae]

I think his response is based on his realization of the possibility that it tanks his election chances more than anything. There have been several instances of questionable actions he took, the police chief firing isn't isolated. So while I accept that he may have regret, he supported non-intervention with a clearly racist police force. Part of Buttigieg's defense that the tapes of racist officers needed to be kept hidden is that it would jeopardize ongoing criminal proceedings from those racist officers cases... so I can only view him as supporting white supremacy every step of the way, whether he understood it or not.

Jumping to white supremacy seems quite the leap. I know no one likes the practical answer but if the tapes were made illegally and the city released them they would open themselves up to law suits from those now former cops. This article says as much

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.southbendtribune.com/news/local/officers-again-will-try-to-block-south-bend-police-tapes/article_7d05f43f-339b-59eb-b083-4a2d6d7479e6.amp.html

“The administration has refused to turn over the tapes unless a judge rules they weren’t made illegally”

He’s probably trying not to bankrupt the city even if that choice would be more popular with a lot of people.