Originally posted by B-Fly
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There is no proof that God exists
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Originally posted by B-Fly View PostIt's interesting how, much like last time the "does G-d exist" question came up here several years back, the focus of the discussion has somehow shifted to the question of Jesus's divinity. I thought the question was aiming at what "proof" is there of the existence of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and omnibenevolent deity, whether as Creator or as an active G-d who is still pulling strings, hearing and responding to prayers, judging humans, etc, on an ongoing basis? At least to my mind, that has little or nothing to do with the debate over evidence of Jesus's resurrection or lack thereof, but maybe that's just me.
There was really no question. There was a statement that there is no proof that God exists. I believe that Jesus is the proof that God exists.
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Originally posted by Sour Masher View PostYeah, I shouldn't have contributed to this inevitable derailing. It is the nature of such conversations though, because most people believe the evidence for God exists in their specific religion. I think those who are agnostic or atheist have a hard time having this conversation with those who are religious, because they want to focus on evidence independent of the religious texts and teachings of a specific religion, and that just isn't possible, as religious folks concept of God is so grounded in their religion. The conversation always goes to proving the existence of their God, rather than a generic "omnipresent, omnipresent, omniscient, and benevolent deity." All answers to such challenges presuppose an acceptance of their sacred texts, or the conversation goes no where. Proof does not exist outside of the specific narrative, so none can be given to someone who does not immerse themselves in the narrative.--------------------------------------
You know a girl in a hat is just so…vogue.
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Originally posted by Gregg View PostHow do you know what his teachings were/are?
I am not being a smart aleck when I ask what source gives him validity to you? How do you separate the true from the false?Last edited by Sour Masher; 10-15-2018, 03:14 PM.
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Originally posted by Gregg View PostHow do you know what his teachings were/are?
I am not being a smart aleck when I ask what source gives him validity to you? How do you separate the true from the false?
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Originally posted by Sour Masher View PostYeah, I shouldn't have contributed to this inevitable derailing. It is the nature of such conversations though, because most people believe the evidence for God exists in their specific religion. I think those who are agnostic or atheist have a hard time having this conversation with those who are religious, because they want to focus on evidence independent of the religious texts and teachings of a specific religion, and that just isn't possible, as religious folks concept of God is so grounded in their religion. The conversation always goes to proving the existence of their God, rather than a generic "omnipresent, omnipresent, omniscient, and benevolent deity." All answers to such challenges presuppose an acceptance of their sacred texts, or the conversation goes no where. Proof does not exist outside of the specific narrative, so none can be given to someone who does not immerse themselves in the narrative.
When I brought up the resurrection I did not refer to any texts. No one denies the existence of Jesus and his followers. No one denies he was crucified. No one denies that many of his disciples were killed. I asked what changed.
Edit to add : No one is probably to strong and should read not many.
Did you think that I could change your mind or anyone else who claims to be atheist or agnostic? Did you expect to give me the aha moment where I would lose the faith that I have? Would you even want to do that?
Plus this is the hot topic thread.Last edited by Gregg; 10-15-2018, 03:18 PM.
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Originally posted by Gregg View PostI do not see this thread as derailed. It has been a very civil exchange. I don't think anyone is riled up. I am glad you are participating.
When I brought up the resurrection I did not refer to any texts. No one denies the existence of Jesus and his followers. No one denies he was crucified. No one denies that many of his disciples were killed. I asked what changed.
Did you think that I could change your mind or anyone else who claims to be atheist or agnostic? Did you expect to give me the aha moment where I would lose the faith that I have? Would you even want to do that?
Plus this is the hot topic thread.
One thing that is worth bringing up, as a way to broaden the convo to take a step out of Christian doctrine is that your experiences with the historical evidence we try to piece together and the way the sacred texts fill in the gaps is very much like what those of other faiths experience. The sort of belief testing you have engaged in to come to the conclusions you have are similar to ones others have engaged in to become certain in the validity of their religion. There is just as much evidence, if you want to find it, and you are willing to make some leaps of faith, in other belief systems that tout their own divine beings and teachings. So, are they all true? What makes Christianity more valid than these other faiths with equally compelling stories, and with millions or billions of devout followers? Why is the proof provided in your sacred texts more valid than the proof provided in theirs?Last edited by Sour Masher; 10-15-2018, 03:37 PM.
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Originally posted by Gregg View PostHow do you know what his teachings were/are?
I am not being a smart aleck when I ask what source gives him validity to you? How do you separate the true from the false?"You know what's wrong with America? If I lovingly tongue a woman's nipple in a movie, it gets an "NC-17" rating, if I chop it off with a machete, it's an "R". That's what's wrong with America, man...."--Dennis Hopper
"One should judge a man mainly from his depravities. Virtues can be faked. Depravities are real." -- Klaus Kinski
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