Originally posted by DMT
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Alex Jones kicked off YouTube, Facebook, & iTunes
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"Looks like I picked a bad day to give up sniffing glue.
- Steven McCrosky (Lloyd Bridges) in Airplane
i have epiphanies like that all the time. for example i was watching a basketball game today and realized pom poms are like a pair of tits. there's 2 of them. they're round. they shake. women play with them. thus instead of having two, cheerleaders have four boobs.
- nullnor, speaking on immigration law in AZ.
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Originally posted by In the Corn View PostSo a religious group that preaches homosexuality is a sin..deserving of state protection or not?
However, I also think it's completely ridiculous that we exempt churches from paying taxes when so many are thinly-veiled political organizations.If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
- Terence McKenna
Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)
How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige
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Originally posted by baldgriff View PostI believe that Antifa has every right to "confront" them in PEACEFUL manner."The Times found no pattern of sexual misconduct by Mr. Biden, beyond the hugs, kisses and touching that women previously said made them uncomfortable." -NY Times
"For a woman to come forward in the glaring lights of focus, nationally, you’ve got to start off with the presumption that at least the essence of what she’s talking about is real, whether or not she forgets facts" - Joe Biden
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Originally posted by cardboardbox View Postthere's nothing peaceful about antifa.If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
- Terence McKenna
Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)
How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige
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First they came for the alt-right, and I did not speak out -
Because I was not a member of the alt-right.
Then they came for the Nazis, and I did not speak out -
Because I was not a Nazi.
Then they came for Al Quaeda, and I did not speak out -
Because I was not a member of Al Quaeda.
Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak for me.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."
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Originally posted by senorsheep View PostFirst they came for the alt-right, and I did not speak out -
Because I was not a member of the alt-right.
Then they came for the Nazis, and I did not speak out -
Because I was not a Nazi.
Then they came for Al Quaeda, and I did not speak out -
Because I was not a member of Al Quaeda.
Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak for me.
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Originally posted by Gregg View PostSo you are saying the lefties are giving you the silent treatment?It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years and we must stop it.
Bill Clinton 1995, State of the Union Address
"When they go low - we go High" great motto - too bad it was a sack of bullshit. DNC election mantra
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Righteous violence is exponentially more concerning to me than legally protected speech, no matter how contemptible or unworthy that speech might be."When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."
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Originally posted by B-Fly View PostGood debate. Let me throw out a different example to tease out some ideas on this. My wife gets pretty apoplectic about the anti-vaccine movement. I don't get quite as worked up about it, but I do see a real public safety concern if/when enough people buy into anti-vax misinformation and conspiracy theories that they (1) endanger their own kids, (2) endanger kids with a real specific medical reason why they can't get vaccinated (e.g., a drug allergy), and (3) endanger "herd immunity" and can create epidemics of previously controlled/eradicated diseases.
So when my wife saw Andrew Wakefield's anti-vax book in our local public library in the parenting section, she flipped and brought it to the attention of the library staff, who brought it to the library board, who ultimately decided to remove the book from the shelves. For those who don't know the story on Andrew Wakefield, I'll link to Wikipedia rather than trying to summarize it in a way that would undoubtedly reflect my bias. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield
So in a case like this, there's a strong case against the "just leave it out there and let readers decide for themselves whether to credit it" perspective, and for "censorship" or at the very least re-shelving the book so it's in medical/scientific history or with warnings/provisos, etc. What do you all think?
I'd rather see the book remain available with a disclaimer, or placed in some type of alternative medicine section, than see it pulled. Even our good and sensible acts create ripples we cannot control or predict."When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."
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Originally posted by senorsheep View PostI'd rather see the book remain available with a disclaimer, or placed in some type of alternative medicine section, than see it pulled. Even our good and sensible acts create ripples we cannot control or predict.If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
- Terence McKenna
Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)
How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige
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Originally posted by DMT View PostBut your concerns about ripples that might occur by removing a fraudulent medical book on the shelves have to be balanced against the ripples that might occur by leaving it there. Namely, parents becoming completely misinformed about their children's health by a charlatan who's been banished by the medical community.
Why do you prefer a ban to a disclaimer? Do you think the disclaimer wouldn't work?
I'd rather provide context for the book than ban it. If, for instance, somebody wanted to access the book in order to debunk it, I'd like them to have that option."When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."
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Originally posted by senorsheep View PostI think I clearly explained why I prefer a disclaimer to a ban - there is a competing free expression interest to consider. Which, in fairness, I'm sure I weigh more heavily than most.
Why do you prefer a ban to a disclaimer? Do you think the disclaimer wouldn't work?
I'd rather provide context for the book than ban it. If, for instance, somebody wanted to access the book in order to debunk it, I'd like them to have that option.If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
- Terence McKenna
Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)
How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige
Comment
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Originally posted by In the Corn View PostThat's a pretty slippery slope your walking there DMT.
Should we have shut down punk music and it's anarchy message back in the '70's, as it was "shit"?
Where do we draw the line. I'm not saying I know the answer, but I'm leery anytime someone says we should shut down a form a speech because the next form in the cross hairs could be one with which you agree.
For those arguing abstractly about the importance of the free exchange of ideas, comparing Alex Jones's viscious lies to ideologies and opinions, I see a clear distinction between them. I understand the argument that as a society we should allow people to express even those most appalling ideologies openly in a free society. But for me, there is a clear line separating opinions and facts. Just as the 1st Amendment doesn't protect you if you falsely yell fire in a crowded theater, our society should not allow someone to make repeated unsubstantiated claims, vehemently, and passionately, and in a way that begs for actions from his listeners based on those false claims.
Jones is a lie peddler of the very worst kind. He tells his audience of millions the worst possible lies I can imagine. He tells them some people are pedophiles without any proof. He tells them others who have had their children murdered are actors who are lying about their grief. I am amazed he still walks the earth, frankly. I cannot think of more vile, harmful lies that can be spoken. I don't know what I would do to a man repeatedly sullied the name of my dead child, repeatedly incited listeners to harrass me and my family with phone calls and emails and messages left at my home wishing me and my family harm, mocking my real pain and loss, calling me the liar.
Such lies should be punished. They should be refuted. They should be silenced. Jones should be jailed for his lies and how he peddles them as facts, not just banned for some platforms. Again, not for his ideologies, or opinions about the world, but for the harmful lies he peddles as absolute truths. He harrassed those poor people. And it is right that platforms stopped enabling that harrassment.
Imagine if someone stood outside your house, your place of business, your child's school, and shouted into a bullhorn that you were a pedophile who must he stopped at all cost. Imagine that while this was not true, no one did anything about t, and many if your neighbors began to believe it and treat you as such? Imagine if this led to harrassment and threats made to you and your family. Or imagine all of that, but that man was calling you a liar for claiming your son was murdered. Imagine him saying you and your wife were scumbag actors whose pain was not real, whose dead son was not real. Imagine feeling the pain of having your dead son's memory maligned, or erased by such claims.
This is what Alex Jones has done. This is not speech that should be protected. This is not an ideology we are attacking in banning him. It is deceit with malicious intent. When your conspiracy theories cross the lines into specific claims about individuals that are provably false, and those claims cause harm, that is when we should all be okay with the spread of that message, that lie, being restricted.Last edited by Sour Masher; 08-08-2018, 01:05 AM.
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Originally posted by senorsheep View PostI think I clearly explained why I prefer a disclaimer to a ban - there is a competing free expression interest to consider. Which, in fairness, I'm sure I weigh more heavily than most.
Why do you prefer a ban to a disclaimer? Do you think the disclaimer wouldn't work?
I'd rather provide context for the book than ban it. If, for instance, somebody wanted to access the book in order to debunk it, I'd like them to have that option.
That said, local public libraries of course don't and can't carry every book ever published and therefore have to make discretionary "curation" decisions all the time about what books to order and what books to pull to make room on the shelves for newer books, so library boards and library staff are necessarily making decisions every day about which books will be of interest or of value to the community they serve.
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Originally posted by Sour Masher View PostFor me, the slope isn't slippery, and the distinctions are clear. For me, it is not about ideology, it is about reality. Alex Jones is a vile hate monger making millions peddling supplements to fools. But that isn't why he was banned. He was banned for completely fabricating facts about specific individuals and preaching those facts to a gullible audience who harrassed the parents of murdered children. He did this repeatedly, without remorse.
For those arguing abstractly about the importance of the free exchange of ideas, comparing Alex Jones's viscious lies to ideologies and opinions, I see a clear distinction between them. I understand the argument that as a society we should allow people to express even those most appalling ideologies openly in a free society. But for me, there is a clear line separating opinions and facts. Just as the 1st Amendment doesn't protect you if you falsely yell fire in a crowded theater, our society should not allow someone to make repeated unsubstantiated claims, vehemently, and passionately, and in a way that begs for actions from his listeners based on those false claims.
Jones is a lie peddler of the very worst kind. He tells his audience of millions the worst possible lies I can imagine. He tells them some people are pedophiles without any proof. He tells them others who have had their children murdered are actors who are lying about their grief. I am amazed he still walks the earth, frankly. I cannot think of more vile, harmful lies that can be spoken. I don't know what I would do to a man repeatedly sullied the name of my dead child, repeatedly incited listeners to harrass me and my family with phone calls and emails and messages left at my home wishing me and my family harm, mocking my real pain and loss, calling me the liar.
Such lies should be punished. They should be refuted. They should be silenced. Jones should be jailed for his lies and how he peddles them as facts, not just banned for some platforms. Again, not for his ideologies, or opinions about the world, but for the harmful lies he peddles as absolute truths. He harrassed those poor people. And it is right that platforms stopped enabling that harrassment.
Imagine if someone stood outside your house, your place of business, your child's school, and shouted into a bullhorn that you were a pedophile who must he stopped at all cost. Imagine that while this was not true, no one did anything about t, and many if your neighbors began to believe it and treat you as such? Imagine if this led to harrassment and threats made to you and your family. Or imagine all of that, but that man was calling you a liar for claiming your son was murdered. Imagine him saying you and your wife were scumbag actors whose pain was not real, whose dead son was not real. Imagine feeling the pain of having your dead son's memory maligned, or erased by such claims.
This is what Alex Jones has done. This is not speech that should be protected. This is not an ideology we are attacking in banning him. It is deceit with malicious intent. When your conspiracy theories cross the lines into specific claims about individuals that are provably false, and those claims cause harm, that is when we should all be okay with the spread of that message, that lie, being restricted.
Every single one of Jones' targets should be suing him for liable/defamation as these personal attacks are false. Sue the asshole until he has no money to promote his agenda. Prove him wrong in the court of your peers.
Jones' speech being banned by big business is no different than NFL owners deciding Colin Kaepernick's speech/actions are harmful to their product. You have to be willing to make the sacrifice if you want your message out in the public."Looks like I picked a bad day to give up sniffing glue.
- Steven McCrosky (Lloyd Bridges) in Airplane
i have epiphanies like that all the time. for example i was watching a basketball game today and realized pom poms are like a pair of tits. there's 2 of them. they're round. they shake. women play with them. thus instead of having two, cheerleaders have four boobs.
- nullnor, speaking on immigration law in AZ.
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