#___ingwhileblack

[Sour Masher]

Odd, that's not disagreeing. I think systemic racism is the fundamental problem and that individual racists are symptoms.

But that was not the topic. It does not preclude a minority from being a racist. If over the next 50 years the race dynamics flip and caucasians become the minority race in the US, and there are systems put in place that severely disadvantage white people, Richard Spencer is still a racist moron. It's an attribute of him and of his actions regardless of everything else going on around him. Even if you were to throw out all the history of racism, he's still a racist. I'm not sure how that's even up for discussion. It's his prejudiced views and actions that make him a racist, not the system he lives in.

We can be intelligent individuals and realize that the system is the core problem to fix - the problem that created the racists, and we can still be smart enough to condemn the actions of the individual racist without the context. It's okay to hate both types.

Yes, I'd imagine/hope everyone agrees with this.

And it also ties back with our current reality. Do you, or anyone think that the fear of that happening is a reason why current systemic racism is ignored and not properly addressed? Is there feet dragging on some issues, because some folks may not be in any hurry to fix a system that might lead to the pendulum swinging the other way? Is there an assumption among some that if a more level playing field leads to more equality of opportunity than their may be future retribution by historically oppressed groups? That they may want to not only be equal but to be better and take on the role of oppressor to a future white minority?

Or is it simpler--is it that most white folks don't believe/accept that America is not, and never has been, a pure meritocracy? Do average folks on the right believe the conservative talk radio talking points that minorities don't want equality of opportunity, but want more--they want free hand outs, they want unfair advantages, or they want equality of outcomes, even if it is undeserved?

For those immersed in a conservative cultural/social group, do you think there is a sense among your peers that minorities are living in the past, that the playing field has been leveled, and now minorities (and white liberals) are pushing for more than is fair, or is their a recognition that more needs to be done to make the system fair, but they just don't want to give up an advantageous position? Trying to understand what the dominant mindset/perspective is that resists progressive ideas on racial equality on the right.

[DMT]

Ok. Now we are getting somewhere. How do middle class white men make a difference in the battle against racism?

On a day-to-day personal level, by challenging it when we encounter it, (e.g. jokes, workplace behavior) and being willing to reexamine our own behaviors, attitudes, etc., and being willing to engage when people of color call out instances of our white privilege and fragility.

On a more systemic level, supporting politicians who are willing to challenge the racist structures that dominate our society. District attorneys, in particular, have a profound effect at the local level in addressing racist structures, particularly via law enforcement and the justice system.

[Sour Masher]

Ok. Now we are getting somewhere. How do middle class white men make a difference in the battle against racism?

For me, it would be in recognizing that the system has inherent unfairness in it and that as long as we don't advocate for changes to the system, we are implicitly accepting these biases. It would be in breaking free from the mindset that racial issues are a zero sum game where whites have to give something up so minorities get something. I think on many of the issues, we all benefit from fixing these issues. And everyone should be voting to fix these issues, but most of these issues have been politicized, so many feel they must stick with the position of their party or tribe.

For instance, I think both sides of the police shooting issue would do well to recognize the problems with police training in this country that affects everyone. Although the systemic inequalities of policing, surveillance, and, yes, some inherent individual biases mean that black men are disproportionately affected by this problem. However, others, to a lesser degree, but still to an unacceptable degree, also are hurt by the training mentality of "everyone is a potential threat; shoot first, ask questions later." There are unarmed men and woman of all races killed by police every year (in fact, more unarmed white people are killed by police each year than any other group, which makes sense given the large white majority, of course). That should be something no one defends. But the debate has become us vs them, black vs blue. The larger systemic problem has been pushed aside by the individual racism that clearly does exist on the force as well, and builds upon the other racial biases in the system. The racial motives behind many of the most prominent examples of police shooting unarmed citizens or citizens who are armed but are doing nothing wrong are real, but are not the whole story, and they have dominated the discussion in a divisive way when it would make more sense to find common ground and acknowledge a fundamental shift in training and attitude is needed in a lot of law enforcement agencies in this country.

The fact that a lot of middle class white folks are against black folks talking about this issue not only shows callousness to the suffering of others, it shows ignorance in the suffering of all under the system of training currently in place. It is one example of how all voters should be looking at issues objectively and with an open mind rather than being led by the nose into an us vs them mentality pushed by political pundits and talking heads. We don't have to attack cops or hate them en mass or fail to recognize how dangerous and stressful their jobs are to recognize that there is both individual racism prevalent on the force that must be addressed, and also system issues of training that affect all citizens that must be addressed.

[Judge Jude]

I would like to add that most white people have inverted this and view individual racists as the problem. That allows them to feel better about themselves since they don't engage in racist behaviors. They also generally get very defensive when confronted with the fact the they have benefited their entire lives from our racist system because they associate racism only with "bad people".

maybe I can help. I think they get "defensive" when confronted with a stereotype that leaves a vibe that all white males are wealthy descendants of those who arrived on the Mayflower and soon owned slaves. I see a later comment about the judicial system, which is a terrific example of a massive institutional racism that remains in place today. A lower-class white person "benefits" from being less likely to be thrown in jail for trivial offenses, which is a key distinction. but that's not an ideal use of the word "benefits."

many of those who most enjoy making people "defensive" regarding institutional racism are products of significant privilege (obviously I have less than zero knowledge if it applies to anyone here, and note I say "many" but not "most"). maybe it's a guilt complex, I don't know. but it's funny, stereotyping makes everybody defensive, if you think about it. that's just one of the reasons that it sucks.

I also fully agree on the police issue. I have mentioned that the biggest failure by Obama was to practically ignore his own African-American Attorney General's report on the Ferguson shooting, which showed that it was a terrible example of a beacon for the very real issue of police shootings. (there may be some here who are confused why they didn't get that story in their news feed. well, the report is worth a read.)

at the same time, he didn't stress ENOUGH something else that report showed - a racist police force and county using the minority communities as ATMs to pay for their perks. it's a far worse issue nationwide than the average middle-class white guy can imagine.

I guess he wouldn't have made anybody happy to underscore the actual facts emphatically - so he didn't. it's a shame.

[OaklandA's]

I guess he wouldn't have made anybody happy to underscore the actual facts emphatically - so he didn't. it's a shame.

Obama spoke about Holder's Ferguson report several times when it came out. Holder's report came out on March 4, 2015. Here are at least 4 public speeches by Obama about it in the first 10 days. Could he have done more? Sure, but to say that he ignored it is not quite accurate.

March 6, 2015 (Benedict College, SC speech) - https://www.politico.com/story/2015/...ion-doj-115839
March 7, 2015 (with Tom Joyner on Sirius XM radio) - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-r...-not-isolated/
March 7, 2015 (Selma speech) - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...n-civil-rights
March 13, 2015 (on Jimmy Kimmel Live) - https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...on_police.html

[Judge Jude]

did you actually read the Politico or The Guardian story, for example?

he properly makes note of the overall systemic racism, and good for him. but I don't see anything in the story that has him debunking the "Don't Shoot" meme as well. at least in that case, he ignored Holder's report.

I guess I was too kind - I wanted him to underscore two profound findings in the report. you're right, it looks like he only picked the one his side wanted to hear. it's a shame.

[revo]

Ken’s story is upsetting, and if I was in that situation, I’d be upset and angry too. But was it “racism”? I don’t know. Here’s what I mean:

- when Whites in this country hate a minority class, it’s because they usually think that class is beneath them (blacks, Latinos, Jews, immigrants, whatever). That’s racism/bigotry, pure and simple.
- when minorities hate Whites, it’s less about the color of their skin or a feeling that they’re superior but more about the anger build-up of being considered inferior all these years/decades/centuries. It’s an anger, but not a superiority complex.

In Ken’s story, these Latinos may have had a hatred of Whites for being considered inferior in that region, had the upper hand and had him cornered. I suppose it’s a form of racism, but not the form I typically associate with “racism.”


And as far as my use of “whitey,” I mean come on. I’m white. It was used as a derogatory term for this anonymous asshole. Frankly, I’m surprised that set off some more than the pages and pages of outright, disgusting racism that is sprouting daily that’s being posted in this thread.

[Ken]

- when Whites in this country hate a minority class, itÂ’s because they usually think that class is beneath them (blacks, Latinos, Jews, immigrants, whatever). ThatÂ’s racism/bigotry, pure and simple.
- when minorities hate Whites, itÂ’s less about the color of their skin or a feeling that theyÂ’re superior but more about the anger build-up of being considered inferior all these years/decades/centuries. ItÂ’s an anger, but not a superiority complex.

In my opinion that's a vast oversimplification. In some cases people hate each other because of the history, just as you describe. In other situations it's simply - you don't look/act like me and the people I'm around, you are different than me, so I don't like you and I'm going to treat you as an inferior individual. In other situations, an individual grows up surrounded by the mentality that those of another race (minority or majority) are inferior and they mimic those around them and think/behave with racist ideals. That happens across all races.

Trying to put every racist into one bucket is a logical fallacy.

There's nothing unique about the way a person of one race thinks vs how another race thinks - we're all the same in that regard, and it is those thoughts of fear/hatred of those that are different than them that creates racist thoughts. I think it's a mistake to assume that a white person thinks differently than a minority as you described above. We're all equally capable of being intelligent but we're also all equally capable of being idiots.

In KenÂ’s story, these Latinos may have had a hatred of Whites for being considered inferior in that region,

That's how the systemic racism is thought of but that's not always the reality for individuals. Those guys never suggested that I represented "oppression" to them. They didn't like me because I wasn't Latino.

I don't have any reason to believe my story would have been different if I was from Texas or Canada or Ghana or Japan.

I wasn't one of them, I wasn't their race. I was different. They were all the same. They thought I was inferior because I was not like them.

And as far as my use of “whitey,” I mean come on. I’m white. It was used as a derogatory term for this anonymous asshole. Frankly, I’m surprised that set off some more than the pages and pages of outright, disgusting racism that is sprouting daily that’s being posted in this thread.

I don't think you meant any harm and I get it, but the point I keep trying to make is that stooping down to the race-name calling level is the opposite of what you want to do with a situation like this. But you are right, it is trivial when compared to the broader topic.

As far as setting people off, I'd attribute that to:

1) There's a fundamental disagreement about whether a minority can be racist towards a non-minority - that topic doesn't come up in your other stories
2) For most of your other stories we agree - there's more discussion points to be made in topics we don't agree on. When we all are just nodding our heads to each other about how disgusting something is, we don't really have much else to add? When we disagree, we argue.

[OaklandA's]

he properly makes note of the overall systemic racism, and good for him. but I don't see anything in the story that has him debunking the "Don't Shoot" meme as well. at least in that case, he ignored Holder's report.

I guess I was too kind - I wanted him to underscore two profound findings in the report. you're right, it looks like he only picked the one his side wanted to hear. it's a shame.

I guess I wasn't sure exactly what you were referring to. The report does devote a couple of paragraphs stating that charges would not be filed against Darren Wilson, and about 25 paragraphs on the poor state of relations between the police and the Ferguson community. This poor relationship was the main reason that the situation was so volatile, sort of like with the O.J. case in Los Angeles. Years of anger and resentment boiled over in one case.

I thought that was the main conclusion of the report. It didn't discuss or debunk any of the details of the Brown/Wilson case; it just said that there would no criminal charges filed against Wilson. Obama did discuss that in the South Carolina speech (Politico article).

EDIT to Add: I was thinking of Holder's speech in the above paragraphs, not the full report. But the full report also does not mention the specific Brown/Wilson case very much.

Holder Speech: https://www.justice.gov/opa/speech/a...guson-missouri

Full DOJ Report: https://www.justice.gov/sites/defaul...ent_report.pdf

EDIT #2: A correction of my post. There is a separate DOJ report on the Michael Brown case:

https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/doj_report_on_shooting_of_michael_brown_1.pdf

I understand now that Judge Jude is asking why Obama spent less time on the Brown report than on the Police report. I guess the answer could be politics, but also that the Police report is the "bigger" problem that needs to be addressed.

[Sour Masher]

I understand now that Judge Jude is asking why Obama spent less time on the Brown report than on the Police report. I guess the answer could be politics, but also that the Police report is the "bigger" problem that needs to be addressed.

The latter--that Obama was focusing on the bigger issue for us as a nation, rather than the specifics of this case--was my interpretation as well.

[Fresno Bob]

I recently went through two incidents that I know I was able to slide scott free from because I'm a well-off white guy, and would assume a POC would have had a very different outcome

1.) I had a set of brass knuckles in my backback that had been in there for over a month confiscated at the ballpark, by the person doing handsearching of bags. 100% illegal in california. Confiscated, no other issue

2.) in the 8th inning saturday, my wife and I were asked to "have a discussion" with SF Giants security out of our seats, as we were using "foul language".

Never did I figure that I was going to get in trouble thanks to my "white guy armor", I'm also never afraid I'm going to be shot by the cops when/if I get pulled over. My POC buddies can't say the same.

That's systemic racism for me

[Gregg]

I'm also never afraid I'm going to be shot by the cops when/if I get pulled over. My POC buddies can't say the same.

That's systemic racism for me

This is the one I was most naive about until I had a conversation with one of my POC friends last year. I think I posted about it back then. His son wanted to borrow the car to visit friends in Indiana. He had to instruct his son on how to keep his hands on the wheel, etc if he got pulled over. Made me sad that he had to do that, glad he did.

[MrFurious]

This is the one I was most naive about until I had a conversation with one of my POC friends last year. I think I posted about it back then. His son wanted to borrow the car to visit friends in Indiana. He had to instruct his son on how to keep his hands on the wheel, etc if he got pulled over. Made me sad that he had to do that, glad he did.

I gave my son the same instructions for that situation. I got those instructions when I was learning to drive. That should be SOP for anyone, not just POC.

[Teenwolf]

I gave my son the same instructions for that situation. I got those instructions when I was learning to drive. That should be SOP for anyone, not just POC.

... but if your white son doesn't obey orders, or gets confused in the situation, he's far less likely to be mistreated or killed. Pretty big caveat illustrating the difference for black and white drivers.

[MrFurious]

... but if your white son doesn't obey orders, or gets confused in the situation, he's far less likely to be mistreated or killed. Pretty big caveat illustrating the difference for black and white drivers.

You can read anything you want into my statement. That doesn't change the fact that I was given the same instructions as was my son. I made no comment about anything else.