Democratic Party 2017 and beyond

[Judge Jude]

I had edited the post to clarify, but then realized I don't much feel like going best-of-three falls on this one even though the context is a little different. I will say this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/us/politics/elizabeth-warren-dna-ancestry.html

"There is “strong evidence” that Ms. Warren has Native American pedigree “6-10 generations ago,” according to a document she released from Carlos Bustamante, a renowned geneticist from Stanford University."

...................

that's not much of a pedigree, is it?

it's amazing how dumb politicians can be. from day one on this, she should have said that in her family discussions, as with most Oklahomans, there was talk of Indian heritage. so one day she fills out a form and checks the Indian box because it tickled her fancy.

it indirectly looks as if it was a cynical ploy to help her gain affirmative action points in the academic world, but maybe not. instead she keeps doubling and tripling down, keeping the story alive.

she has no sane standing to claim to have "Native American" status. or if she does, then the box doesn't mean anything anymore should a relative literally from 200 years ago qualify you. picture an actual minority losing out on a job or a promotion to someone who has that faint a connection. outside of the context of Elizabeth Warren, we all would agree that it would be ridiculous.

maybe I should give her credit. the DNA test wipes away her claim as nonsense outside of one Trump bit of bluster, and there are countless people who get completely distracted by the shiny Trump quote. so well played?

[DMT]

Did Warren make this a public fight? Unless I'm mistaken, it's been Trump who brought it up and continues to show what a POS he is by mockingly calling her "Pocahantas". Honestly I don't know the details because the entire thing is idiotic, but I just find it amusing that he's unwilling to back up his tough rich guy words.

[senorsheep]

she has no sane standing to claim to have "Native American" status. or if she does, then the box doesn't mean anything anymore should a relative literally from 200 years ago qualify you.

Isn't the "issue" one of tribal affiliation, vs. Native American ancestry? A DNA test wouldn't tell you if your Native American ancestor was a member of the Cherokee tribe or not.

Legit or not, I've never seen any evidence from her detractors that she used her tribal affiliation for personal gain. Absent that... who cares?

[Judge Jude]

from Snopes

"The legitimacy of Warren’s claims to Native American heritage has certainly been challenged by many critics, and it is true that while Warren was at U. Penn. Law School she put herself on the “Minority Law Teacher” list as Native American in the faculty directory of the Association of American Law Schools, and that Harvard Law School at one time promoted Warren as a Native American faculty member. But specific evidence that she gained her position at Harvard (at least in part) through her claims to Native American heritage is lacking."

.............

of course, the odds of anyone at Harvard ever saying, "well, you got me - I remember that meeting where we said we needed an Indian and here's one!" is less than zero. still, mainly it's just weird that she tried to pawn herself off as something that by all sane definitions she is not. it was racists who would say, "one drop of Negro blood makes you a Negro!" way back, well, around the time that Warren may have had a Native American enter her family tree.

it's a frivolous issue, outside of her still not just acknowledging the obvious. that's what had many people hung up on Kavanaugh. he was a bigger partier in high school than he wanted to admit. and people who are truly sensitive to the plight of minority cultures don't check off a convenient box on a lark (at best).

.............

also per Boston Globe:
"Warren also listed herself as a minority in a legal directory published by the Association of American Law Schools from 1986 to 1995. She’s never provided a clear answer on why she stopped self-identifying.

She was also listed as a Native American in federal forms filed by the law schools at Harvard University and University of Pennsylvania where she worked.

And in 1996, as Harvard Law School was being criticized for lacking diversity, a spokesman for the law school told the Harvard Crimson that Warren was Native American."

[a 1997 Fordham Law Review article comically said that Harvard had hired its first "woman of color" just two years earlier, Elizabeth Warren.]

[OaklandA's]

of course, the odds of anyone at Harvard ever saying, "well, you got me - I remember that meeting where we said we needed an Indian and here's one!" is less than zero.

But isn't the reason that no one at Harvard said that is because Warren did not claim Native American status on her job application at Harvard? Harvard has posted a document showing that her "minority" status was added to her file three years after she had been offered tenure.

https://mk0elizabethwarh5ore.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/HLSPersonnelPaperwork.pdf

https://mk0elizabethwarh5ore.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/HLSRegistrarMemo.pdf

Edit to add: According to these documents, her status was changed at Harvard in 1995, while she was hired at the beginning of 1993. That change in status is probably what triggered the stories you reference from 1996 and 1997.

[Judge Jude]

ok, but don't you find this whole episode odd?
and isn't it offensive, in the abstract, for someone to claim minority status for so many years, and be lauded as a "glass ceiling breaker" when such a claim was utter nonsense?

even the dopey $1M Trump angle comes down to saying that Warren has proven that she is an "Indian" because - by the best estimate - she had a relative with Native American blood TWO HUNDRED years ago?

doesn't such a claim inoculate countless Americans from invading affirmative action programs with claims because they have a similarly-remote documentation?

that's what kills me about these stories. an obviously bizarre scenario in the abstract suddenly changes when the "laundry" is the right color.

I'm glad most people here get that when it comes to 1000 bizarre Trump angles a month. but do we have any principles left?

I am offended by anyone who claims virtually nonexistent ethnic heritage, and winds up being happy to be touted for it for many years. I don't need to know the political leanings of the person involved, either. why should anyone? is this a controversial point? she can be touted as a "woman of color" and we're all ok with that? does anyone really believe that this DNA test validates Warren's claims?

Ds: the Rs already elected Trump and are standing by him. you guys have to do better, and this is.... not good.

[OaklandA's]

doesn't such a claim inoculate countless Americans from invading affirmative action programs with claims because they have a similarly-remote documentation?

If Warren had claimed minority status to unfairly advance her career, I would have a problem with that (See, for example, the story about Kevin McCarthy's wife's family falsely claiming Native American status to help win over $7M in no-bid, set aside government contracts). But I don't see any evidence that Warren did that. It actually seems like Harvard used her small Native American heritage to promote Harvard's diversity, which I agree is silly.

[Judge Jude]

Boston Globe is paywalled, but my guy Chris Mathews has this quote from their story posted on tonight's show: "she had her ethnicity changed from white to Native American at the University of Pennsylvania Law School, where she taught from 1987 to 1995."

that's before she landed at Harvard, a member of the Ivy League that is under fire for allegations of discrimination against Asian-Americans who have dominated test scoring and other key aspects in recent years.

I can't assume Harvard is an honest broker here, sorry.

the McCarthy case is early, but if he had any knowledge of the brother-in-law's shady dealings then obviously I would denounce that as well.

[OaklandA's]

Boston Globe is paywalled, but my guy Chris Mathews has this quote from their story posted on tonight's show: "she had her ethnicity changed from white to Native American at the University of Pennsylvania Law School, where she taught from 1987 to 1995."

I can't assume Harvard is an honest broker here, sorry.

While at Penn, Warren did change her status to Native American. Here is the document to prove it from Penn's files:

https://mk0elizabethwarh5ore.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/UPennPersonnelPage.pdf

But again, this change at Penn was not one that anyone seemed to take notice of, and on her job application to Harvard she listed her status as Caucasian. Not sure what you means about Harvard not being an honest broker - are you saying the documents posted from Harvard are forgeries?

Edit to add: There are so many articles available about Warren's hiring at Harvard in 1993, from the Boston Globe, Harvard Crimson, Penn Law Review, and Harvard Law Review among others. None of them mention Warren's Native American status - they all state she is a white woman. In fact, most of them point out that while Harvard did hire a woman, they still have a serious diversity problem!

[Judge Jude]

I'm saying that you keep dodging the core issue - is it offensive for someone to claim an ethnicity and be lauded as a 'trailblazer' for having a relative that by the best estimate came along 200 years ago?

from Cherokee.org today:

TAHLEQUAH, Okla. — Cherokee Nation Secretary of State Chuck Hoskin Jr. issued the following statement Monday in response to Senator Elizabeth Warren’s DNA test claiming Native Heritage:

"A DNA test is useless to determine tribal citizenship. Current DNA tests do not even distinguish whether a person’s ancestors were indigenous to North or South America," Cherokee Nation Secretary of State Chuck Hoskin Jr. said. "Sovereign tribal nations set their own legal requirements for citizenship, and while DNA tests can be used to determine lineage, such as paternity to an individual, it is not evidence for tribal affiliation. Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong. It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven. Senator Warren is undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage."

..................

I want and I need a Democratic Party that actually looks out for the interests of minorities. the Rs won't, for damn sure.

why the need to rally 'round Warren for this nonsense? Native Americans have had a troubled history in trying to co-exist, and a wealthy old white lady trying to tie her political ambitions to them is wildly inappropriate.

be the better party - it's a damn low bar to clear these days.

[cardboardbox]

so Warren is between 1/64th and 1/1024th native american, and that's if you believe the results of this test. I guess the results really couldnt get any worse for her so I tend to believe it. The NYT says the average white American is .19 African and .18 Native American. .19 is 1/512 so at worst, Warren is half "Native" than the average white person. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/25/s...ity-study.html

[OaklandA's]

I'm saying that you keep dodging the core issue - is it offensive for someone to claim an ethnicity and be lauded as a 'trailblazer' for having a relative that by the best estimate came along 200 years ago?

I'm not dodging the issue. Warren should definitely not be claiming Native American status in any way to advance her career. No organization should be using Warren to promote their own diversity. If she wants to use her small heritage as a way to advance the cause of Native Americans, I have no problem with that.

[DMT]

In what way has she benefitted from her native American heritage? Isn't this the core issue for those attacking her about it? If not, what is? I agree she shouldn't be calling herself Native American because of a DNA test.

JJ, this is a major stretch to put her in the same category as Trump over this.

ETA: Oakland beat me to it.

[Judge Jude]

so you are not offended by her claiming a bogus Native American status for many years - a claim that ironically was exposed as bogus today, by her?

can we agree that no one with no evidence - and eventually, contrary evidence - for the claim of a protected minority/affirmative action status should ever make that claim, much less make more of a name for oneself as a bogus trailblazer?

her "small heritage" is smaller than that. and the tribe that she claims denounces her.
you seem to be grading Warren on a curve here.

and I don't defend Trump (well, to the extent that he would offer $1M if Warren was found to be native American on a DNA test, I would say that she failed by any sane scale. otherwise, no)

[DMT]

can we agree that no one with no evidence - and eventually, contrary evidence - for the claim of a protected minority/affirmative action status should ever make that claim, much less make more of a name for oneself as a bogus trailblazer?

Sure I can agree, but where are you getting this from? You still haven't answered the question of what she has gained specifically from claiming Native American status.