President Donald Trump

[DMT]

Again, in name only--in belief systems, you should have been as outraged as the rest of us, but from my perspective, you capitulated.

You see it as though you had no choice, but I think you do.

Advocate and work to change an obviously flawed system rather than go with the flow and reward someone for using it to gain advantage (and a little cheating)

I cannot fathom how you can support a man like Bernie who's entire existence is built on trust and integrity and then support someone who nomination was in part because of dishonest and unethical practice.

Then how do you reconcile the unfathomable of Sanders actually supporting Clinton?

It's called politics. It's not black-or-white and it's not an ethical beacon of humanity. It's dirty and nasty and I think one of the reasons Republicans have so much power boils down to their willingness to be nastier.

[GwynnInTheHall]

In the few weeks up to and especially after the election, I was bombarded with FB posts labeling all Trump supporters X (bigots, racists, etc) and I did my best to combat this ridiculous mindset by posting articles showing the diversity of his voters as well as their very legitimate grievances.

However, I'll admit that I find it mind-boggling that these same people who aren't openly X could bring themselves to vote for Trump, who so clearly promoted those abhorrent ideas. And now they sit idly by while he follows through on those abhorrent ideas by crafting abhorrent policies, turning both the press and the judiciary into 'enemies'. Granted his numbers (if they can be believed) are dropping, but I still see too many people defending him. What will it take to open their eyes?

If you can vote for Clinton and consider yourself an advocate of Honesty and ethics, why can't you believe there are people who voted for Trump who aren;t xenophobes, misogynistic and/or bigots?

[DMT]

If you can vote for Clinton and consider yourself an advocate of Honesty and ethics, which can't you believe there are people who voted for Trump who aren;t xenophobes, misogynistic and/or bigots?

Valid question, but it's because I see the world in color, and there is a spectrum of right and wrong. Xenophobia, racism, misogyny, and faith/anti-science are at the bottom end of that spectrum IMO. A politician changing her views to go with the political winds is nowhere close to being as despicable IMO.

[DMT]

Please do explain how you reconcile dumping Sanders once he dropped out of the race? It makes no sense to me.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Then how do you reconcile the unfathomable of Sanders actually supporting Clinton?

It's called politics. It's not black-or-white and it's not an ethical beacon of humanity. It's dirty and nasty and I think one of the reasons Republicans have so much power boils down to their willingness to be nastier.

Because Bernie is a man of his word, he said he would and he did. he wasn't playing politics, he made a promise which he kept. Novel concept in politics nowadays. He advocated for his supporters to do so as well. How can you think that ws playing politics? What reward did they give him or promise him? THAT would have been politics, to lend his endorsement for a promised position--but has anything even remotely like that come to light? NO it hasn't.

However, Now it's a totally different animal. he's NOT playing nice with the DNC because he never said he would after the election.

I know it's hard to "fathom"a man of principle in politics, but Bernie is that guy.

BTW Anything is what you're willing to fight to have it be. Politics can be as clean or as nasty as well demand/allow it to be. You just have to be willing to work at it and face disappointment, but in the end--you get what you're willing to fight for or accept.

I might spend the rest of my life fighting to make it more ethical or to at least expose what is UNethical. I know the next two years are going to be dedicated to doing what I can here in Nevada to affect the change I believe in--Jeeze, can you imagine the pissed off people in the NDC once I've been in their ears for while? Shit I can;t even agree on the primary agenda of the first activist group I met with (they want to focus on keeping the ACA)

[GwynnInTheHall]

Please do explain how you reconcile dumping Sanders once he dropped out of the race? It makes no sense to me.

Please explain why you'd think I dumped Sanders?

[GwynnInTheHall]

Valid question, but it's because I see the world in color, and there is a spectrum of right and wrong. Xenophobia, racism, misogyny, and faith/anti-science are at the bottom end of that spectrum IMO. A politician changing her views to go with the political winds is nowhere close to being as despicable IMO.

Then here is where were we have our disconnect.

I see unethical behavior and dishonesty as damaging as the traits you deem vile in Trump supporters--even more so to the extent that THEY are sometimes considered acceptable and therefore diminishing their danger while the Obvious-bigotry is widely considered unacceptable.


So I attribute equally Your acceptance of HRC and her dishonesty to any Trump voter and their acceptance of (fill in the awful blank)

You may not agree, but that's how I see it.

[DMT]

How is he not playing nice with the DNC? Honest question, the last story I saw was him refusing to form a new party because he wanted to focus on the Democratic Party.

You think that I and others here capitulated by supporting Clinton. But, Sanders himself supported Clinton. So it's baffling to me that you continue to promote yourself as the purest/only Sanders supporter when you didn't actually support him once he dropped out and threw his support to Clinton. Supporting a candidate until the end means you switch your support to whomever they endorse. Or should endorsements not count when you don't agree with them?

[DMT]

Then here is where were we have our disconnect.

I see unethical behavior and dishonesty as damaging as the traits you deem vile in Trump supporters--even more so to the extent that THEY are sometimes considered acceptable and therefore diminishing their danger while the Obvious-bigotry is widely considered unacceptable.


So I attribute equally Your acceptance of HRC and her dishonesty to any Trump voter and their acceptance of (fill in the awful blank)

You may not agree, but that's how I see it.

I fully realize that's how you see it, but I don't feel the need to keep having the same arguments. Equating Clinton with Trump is something I will never understand from someone who considers themselves progressive. As history has shown countless times, progress is slow and painful. Demonizing someone because they accept that and work for incremental change rather than radical change as much as someone who wants to move our country in the other direction is totally illogical to me.

Do you consider yourself a fan of Bannon who openly admits he wants to 'smash the system'?

[senorsheep]

However, I'll admit that I find it mind-boggling that these same people who aren't openly X could bring themselves to vote for Trump, who so clearly promoted those abhorrent ideas. And now they sit idly by while he follows through on those abhorrent ideas by crafting abhorrent policies, turning both the press and the judiciary into 'enemies'. Granted his numbers (if they can be believed) are dropping, but I still see too many people defending him. What will it take to open their eyes?

Well, it'd take an hours-long conversation to cover all the bases on this topic, but I'll throw out a few random things to chew on.

I used to be able to consider voting for Republican candidates, even though I found their party's stated social agenda abhorrent. Well, "abhorrent" might be strong... I'll say distasteful, obnoxious, and wrong-headed. However, I was able to look past that for two reasons: 1) I weighted other issues - personal liberty, role of government, fiscal responsibility - much heavier than social issues, and 2) I recognized most of their social issues rhetoric as pandering to specific constituencies, knowing that they could never get that stuff passed because enough of the rest of the populace wouldn't allow it. I think a lot of Trump voters found themselves in the same situation this election - they didn't like his racial/ cultural trolling, his temperament, his lying, his authoritarian bent, his obnoxious tweeting, whatever else, but they looked past it all because they weighted more serious issues much more heavily, and they trusted that our institutions and constitutional framework would stop him from going too far.

For me personally, his racial/ cultural trolling was enough to disqualify him from consideration, but everybody draws their own line on what they'll accept. I think a lot of his flyover country voters largely ignored the racial/ cultural trolling because it was centered on issues that had no direct impact on their lives - illegal immigration, and our culture clash with people from Islamist nations. How much do you a think a person from south central Illinois cares about those things, compared to having a job and paying the bills?

As for Trump's abhorrent ideas and abhorrent policies like "the ban," not everyone considers them abhorrent in theory (although I think most thoughtful people would have to agree that the execution was abhorrent). Many find the concept of apply extra vetting to immigrants and travelers from Islamist countries perfectly reasonable. Consider this: In some of these countries, homosexuality is a crime punishable by death. Is it unreasonable to take extra caution to make sure that immigrants from these countries understand and embrace our pluralistic notion of democracy as it applies to gay rights?

As for painting the press as the enemy... sorry, but the press is reaping what it has sown. The success of Fox News didn't happen in a vacuum. For years, the establishment media gave short shrift to conservative/ Republican viewpoints, and while I don't think it was some purposeful overarching conspiracy, the bias was/ is clearly there, and that bias leaves them open to charges of having taken sides. I do think it encouraging that many press outlets have talked about getting out into the country more and trying to understand people outside of Washington and New York.

I'm not sure what you expect Trump voters to do at this point. Like I said before, they ate the sh!t sandwich knowing perfectly well what was in it. So long as he delivers what they want, they'll tolerate his petty nonsense.

[DMT]

Well, it'd take an hours-long conversation to cover all the bases on this topic, but I'll throw out a few random things to chew on.

I used to be able to consider voting for Republican candidates, even though I found their party's stated social agenda abhorrent. Well, "abhorrent" might be strong... I'll say distasteful, obnoxious, and wrong-headed. However, I was able to look past that for two reasons: 1) I weighted other issues - personal liberty, role of government, fiscal responsibility - much heavier than social issues, and 2) I recognized most of their social issues rhetoric as pandering to specific constituencies, knowing that they could never get that stuff passed because enough of the rest of the populace wouldn't allow it. I think a lot of Trump voters found themselves in the same situation this election - they didn't like his racial/ cultural trolling, his temperament, his lying, his authoritarian bent, his obnoxious tweeting, whatever else, but they looked past it all because they weighted more serious issues much more heavily, and they trusted that our institutions and constitutional framework would stop him from going too far.

For me personally, his racial/ cultural trolling was enough to disqualify him from consideration, but everybody draws their own line on what they'll accept. I think a lot of his flyover country voters largely ignored the racial/ cultural trolling because it was centered on issues that had no direct impact on their lives - illegal immigration, and our culture clash with people from Islamist nations. How much do you a think a person from south central Illinois cares about those things, compared to having a job and paying the bills?

As for Trump's abhorrent ideas and abhorrent policies like "the ban," not everyone considers them abhorrent in theory (although I think most thoughtful people would have to agree that the execution was abhorrent). Many find the concept of apply extra vetting to immigrants and travelers from Islamist countries perfectly reasonable. Consider this: In some of these countries, homosexuality is a crime punishable by death. Is it unreasonable to take extra caution to make sure that immigrants from these countries understand and embrace our pluralistic notion of democracy as it applies to gay rights?

As for painting the press as the enemy... sorry, but the press is reaping what it has sown. The success of Fox News didn't happen in a vacuum. For years, the establishment media gave short shrift to conservative/ Republican viewpoints, and while I don't think it was some purposeful overarching conspiracy, the bias was/ is clearly there, and that bias leaves them open to charges of having taken sides. I do think it encouraging that many press outlets have talked about getting out into the country more and trying to understand people outside of Washington and New York.

I'm not sure what you expect Trump voters to do at this point. Like I said before, they ate the sh!t sandwich knowing perfectly well what was in it. So long as he delivers what they want, they'll tolerate his petty nonsense.

I forgot to mention that I too grew up in the Midwest and 90% of my family are Trump supporters. As for the extra vetting, that is already happening, but. your point about it not mattering to flyover country is spot on. Economic inequality continues to grow and Trump was able to cast himself as the candidate who would address it, much as Obama was able to cast himself as the 'anti-war' candidate back in 2008.

As for his 'petty nonsense', I'm not sure how you can brush it off so easily. The National Security Advisor just got fired after 24 days for his sketchy ties to Russia which Trump knew about before he was inaugurated. A growing portion of the intelligence community suspects that Russia has already infiltrated Trump's inner circle. He's nearly completed putting together the least qualified, albeit richest, cabinet in history. I obviously don't expect them to be up-to-date on every bad decision or policy that Trump makes, but again I wonder what will it take for these people to realize they've been conned.

[senorsheep]

As for his 'petty nonsense', I'm not sure how you can brush it off so easily. The National Security Advisor just got fired after 24 days for his sketchy ties to Russia which Trump knew about before he was inaugurated. A growing portion of the intelligence community suspects that Russia has already infiltrated Trump's inner circle. He's nearly completed putting together the least qualified, albeit richest, cabinet in history. I obviously don't expect them to be up-to-date on every bad decision or policy that Trump makes, but again I wonder what will it take for these people to realize they've been conned.

I meant petty in the sense of being overly concerned with trivial matters - the tweeting, lying, partisan barking, focusing on his family's clothing line, etc. The other stuff you mentioned is important, but again, I don't know what you expect the people who voted for him to do about it now. I think they knew he was a wild card and were willing to roll the dice.

If important issues continue to crop up, I'd hope some significant percentage of them would withhold their support next time around. Then again, if he delivers on the things that actually matter to them, then he could give Alaska to the Russians and still get their votes.

[Bernie Brewer]

Last time I come to your defense.............

Lol! And I thought I was quasi-coming to your defense, but either way, it works for me.

[Bernie Brewer]

The ugly characterizations of conservative people in this forum is pretty much why I can't bring myself to post in threads like this one anymore. I'm never quite sure how broad a brush our lefty posters intend to paint with when they're in a political frenzy, but too many of them seem to go way too far way too often. I'm sure sometimes I misunderstand who exactly they're including when they refer to "Trump supporters."

We all see things through the prism of our own experience. I grew up in a very small, midwestern town, surrounded by conservative family members and friends. I was never a fan of the midwestern small town experience, and I moved to the big city (Denver) immediately upon graduating from the University of Illinois. But I still remember those folks - many of them quite fondly - and I admit that it does sting to hear people who know nothing about them so casually lump them in with the worst of humanity. I do know these people, and many of them are Trump voters. But they are nothing like the ridiculous caricatures bandied about here, and elsewhere.

I was blessed to be part of my mothers's big Irish Catholic family, scattered across small towns all along the Illinois river. These people were, and are still, some of the best people I've ever known. Big-hearted people who love to laugh and would welcome anyone into their communities. Nearly all of them are college educated. Many of them were/are teachers, and people who assist(ed) with the elderly, and people who did charitable work through their churches for the poor in their communities. And most of them are some mixture of conservatives, Republicans, and Trump voters.

The two Trump voters I know best are my parents. Both have masters degrees in education. Both spent their entire lives teaching and mentoring young people. My mom taught Kindergarten in my hometown for nearly four decades. She can't go out in public without five people rushing over to say "Hello" to Mrs. Lamb, who taught them, and/or their kids, and/or their grandkids. She's a local hero - everybody loves her. Even though she's a conservative Republican Trump voter.

Same goes for my dad - another teacher who over the years coached hundreds of kids in the junior high basketball program. He was the guy who taught his students (and his children) that it's wrong to be racist, and wrong to bully other kids because they're different, and wrong to look down on others because of their background. And he's a conservative Republican Trump voter.

Half my friends now are conservative Republicans who are, to varying degrees, Trump supporters. Half of my private poker league is comprised of the local police department, who are conservative Republican Trump voters. I interact with these folk behind the scenes, away from the public where they can be themselves. And they are most assuredly not racists, xenophobes, homophobes, or hooligans. Just decent folks who would go through a wall for you, and who just happen to hold some traditional conservative values that the Democratic Party seems to look down upon these days.

I'm no fool. I know there are regional pockets of humanity that are unintelligent, uneducated, and just plain rotten, and many of them responded to Trump's awful trolling and continue to act out in terrible ways. Many of them are responsible for propelling Trump to his primary win. At that point, a greater number of more civilized conservatives and Republicans were faced with an awful choice - go with Trump to end Democratic Party rule, or sit out the election, which just really isn't in the DNA of most conservative types. They chose to eat the Trump sh!t sandwich, knowing full well what was in it. That does not make them one and the same with the unintelligent, uneducated, and just plain rotten. I hope posters here will take a little more care to acknowledge that.

Nicely done! Could not agree more. I wish I had written this!

[Hornsby]

I meant petty in the sense of being overly concerned with trivial matters - the tweeting, lying, partisan barking, focusing on his family's clothing line, etc. The other stuff you mentioned is important, but again, I don't know what you expect the people who voted for him to do about it now. I think they knew he was a wild card and were willing to roll the dice.

If important issues continue to crop up, I'd hope some significant percentage of them would withhold their support next time around. Then again, if he delivers on the things that actually matter to them, then he could give Alaska to the Russians and still get their votes.

Jesus, never have a seen a horse beaten so badly months after it was already dead. Here are facts: Clinton lost, she was a shitty candidate. Bernie lost because he was a worse candidate, not because he was screwed. Trump was elected because of ??? reasons that historians will be debating for decades. Nobody in this race was without sin, nor was anyone the incarnation of evil. And I'm done doing the ridiculous Monday Morning QB thing, there's nothing more to see. Look to the future, do what you can, move on.

And sheep, sorry for using your post for the above diatribe, just using your post because I have a legitimate question for you. You say that the current behaviour is trivial to the Trump voter...what exactly did they vote for? What are the important issues to them? What are the things that actually matter? No snark, just honest curiosity as to why people like your family, who sound like fine folks, expect out of the Presidency now that Trump inhabits the office?