President Donald Trump

[Sour Masher]

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/3...ia-connections

About time.

yes it is. Good to finally see. Let's see where it goes...

[cardboardbox]

That completely exonerates all the primary voters that put Trump up against her to run. Or the many forces in play that tried to influence the electorate with false or half false information. Or the voters who allowed themselves to be conned by Trump, or ignore the many negative things he brings to the position of POTUS.

What about Clinton/DNC/media helping Trump become the nominee because all three of them believed he was the easiest to defeat? If you cant beat the guy that most believed was a terrible candidate, you only have yourself to blame.

[Sour Masher]

He lost because Hillary and the DNC facilitated that result to an extent.

Can you articulate the evidence that leads you to this conclusion? I'm not defending the DNC here, because it is clear to me that they wanted to guide HRC to the nomination (although, I suspect it is often the case that the parties hope for a particular candidate to win the primary for a variety of reasons). But what specifically leads you to believe they were successful?

The notion that the DNC, as a whole, wanted HRC to win the nomination is undeniable. That they said and did some shady things behind the scenes seems irrefutable. But these shady things, from the sources I read about them, all seem relatively innocuous in terms of actually affecting the outcome of the nomination process. What exactly did they do that was actually effective in swinging enough delegates from Bernie to move him from winning to losing?

I think of the flip side, and I'm sure, if they were hacked like the DNC was hacked, there would be some shady talk in the GOP about how they didn't want Trump to win, and maybe some small stuff they did to try to swing votes away from him as well. But it didn't work. Despite the whole party being against him, he managed to win.

I just don't see the evidence that suggests that if the DNC was more objective in their opinions about who the nominee should have been that Bernie would have won the primary (although I'd be happy to be pointed to such evidence). It seemed to me, based on talking to a lot of Dems, that a lot of voters preferred a more centrist candidate and feared the potential tax ramifications of a Bernie presidency, or they feared he wouldn't do well in the general because of how unabashedly socialist he was, and so they went with who they thought was a safer candidate (ironic as that seems now).

[GwynnInTheHall]

That completely exonerates all the primary voters that put Trump up against her to run. Or the many forces in play that tried to influence the electorate with false or half false information. Or the voters who allowed themselves to be conned by Trump, or ignore the many negative things he brings to the position of POTUS.

I don't think anyone is trying to exonerate his supporters only get others to admit being complicit, to an extent, in his success getting elected.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Can you articulate the evidence that leads you to this conclusion? I'm not defending the DNC here, because regardless of who I thought was the best candidate, it is clear to me that they wanted to guide HRC to the nomination. But what specifically leads you to believe they were successful? The notion that the DNC wanted HRC to win the nomination is undeniable. That they said and did some shady things behind the scenes seems irrefutable. But these shady things, from the sources I read about them, all seem relatively innocuous in terms of actually affecting the outcome of the nomination process. What exactly did they do that was actually effective in swinging enough delegates from Bernie to move him from winning to losing?

I think of the flip side, and I'm sure, if they were hacked like the DNC was hacked, there would be some shady talk in the GOP about how they didn't want Trump to win, and maybe some small stuff they did to try to swing votes away from him as well. But it didn't work. Despite the whole party being against him, he managed to win. I just don't see the evidence that suggests that if the DNC was more objective in their opinions about who the nominee should have been that Bernie would have won the primary (although I'd be happy to be pointed to such evidence). It seemed to me, based on talking to a lot of Dems, that a lot of voters preferred a more centrist candidate and feared the potential tax ramifications of a Bernie presidency, or they feared he wouldn't do well in the general because of those issues.

I said to an extent, there's no way of knowing for sure if he would have won had there been no shenanigans just as there's know way to know if HRC would have won without them, but to say they weren't a factor in the loss, just isn't true. The DNC did what they believed was their job, facilitate the preferred candidate which was HRC. I had longed believed the DNC's job was to provide a fair and unbiased platform where candidates could be judges and elected solely on their merits--I was wrong.

As for evidence, I can only go with my experience with the Nevada Caucuses, all three of them (Local, County and State). I watched as the DNC actively took the election from Sanders, he should have won, but the fucked him out of it. It wasn't even subtle, though quite a bit of subtle BS occurred as well. From the Sanders campaign manager (whom I spent most of the day with at the county caucus) This was a common occurrence nationwide. Could he have been exaggerating? Of course, but with the rest of the shenanigans (I like that word) that came to light, it's an easy narrative to believe.

[nots]

Hey, screw you.

A lot of us voted for Bernie in the primaries. A lot of us with a lot more years of sweat and blood in the system than you. But once Bernie lost, and started working on his book in earnest, we were left with a choice...Hillary or Trump. Not voting for Hillary was as good as a vote for Trump. All your alternative facts cannot change that.

I thought Lucky voted for Clinton?

[gcstomp]

Gwynn, or Hodor if you prefer, you are covering ground in same way you did months ago, when you said I feel HRC is (fill in the disgusting term of the day) until you prove otherwise. I pointed out that is not how any reasonable system works, and that is the Salem Witch trials of making the victim prove she is not a witch. But you are ok if HRC made poor financial decisions, or was a habitual gambler, or cheated on her spouse, because you have done that, so thats ok. You went on to respond with absolute filth involving fingers, excrement, consuming it, and how you glean truth without need for facts.

I know for HRC daily appearances where she was caught be it for a few seconds moving from a car to a building, or a more formal where she stood and took questions, she was always apologetic, and just operated at a more mature level than Trump, with decades of her life about helping the poor and disenfranchised, and was not creating some odd world of lies like Trump where every wrong doing was just denied. I was thinking specifically about Donna Brazile and CNN leaked questions, not Debbie Schultz, and I do not have anything positive to say about her, or how she and DNC manipulated system against Bernie. I cannot prove anything, it was a few months ago and reporters were always repeating questions, and HRC was always repeating contrition, but if you google Hillary apology election all you get is when Bernie Sanders people accessed Hillary database, and Bernie apologized, which isnt what we are looking for. Also, I would think most Bernie people did vote for HRC when Bernie was absolutely pleading for people to vote for her, and he tirelessly campaigned on her behalf, because the alternative was absurd, and because he genuinely respected her.

As far as stones, glass houses, and swear words, I dont even know what statement I said you are against, other than generally I should not say anything because you feel I am operating from a flawed starting place, namely an infraction you have not committed so you get free swings, or something. Yea, I see this as a dead end, and I feel I am patient and reasonable, but not Kung Fu level walking the lands barefoot tolerant of what I think are wacky attacks.

[DMT]

Yo DMT,

I've listened to you and your explanations of why Hillary lost and why your opinion on the subject is more valid than any other on the topic in this fourm.

You have twice said I posted Lies, so I'll give you a chance to explain yourself with a very simple test.

Here are the questions I asked/statements I made which you called lies, please point out the ones that are not true and therefore lies or answer the questions in a manner that refutes their inference.

Who has been the most vocal group whining about the election in here? I infer with this question that's it's been the Hillary contingent to the extent one guy quit and another went into hiding and the remainder have been the most vocally butthurt group since True or false?

Did Hillary get questions to the primary debates prior to those debates? Pretty simple Yes or No.

Did the DNC activity work against Sanders? Same as above

Did Hillary ever denounce or apologize for that bias? Again, Yes or No

Did she put the disgraced DNC chair on her staff after she resigned? and again.

You called this a lie too, did you actually read it or is that a auto response for you now when this subject arises?


Who was more involved in the primaries than I was? Who has more first hand knowledge of the Sanders/Clinton skirmishes, here on rotojunkie, than I do?

There's also this:

Why did the sanders faction as lucky stated, vote Trump, third party or stay home?

Did Lucky Lie when he stated this as a reason for Hillary losing?

I've read all your posts, read the articles linked to those posts and I understand we don;t agree on this, but to call me a liar and what I've said lies? That's just not true, it bullshit and it's a sophomoric reactional response rather than a thought out contrary opinion.

You're better than than and though you may care less what I think or expect, I expect better from you.

My point is, you are not the only Sanders supporter and when you make claims that his supporters aren't complaining loudly about Trump, you are simply typing falsehoods that fit your narrative, much like Trump's minions. So for you to respond by likening me to them I found to be very amusing and that's why I said to look in the mirror. Even your holier-than-thou black-and-white moral judgments are very similar in tone to Trump's inner circle. You are the only 'Bernie Bro' as far as I know on this board (possibly nots too), who ardently supported Sanders yet refused to continue supporting him when he threw his support to Clinton. Just because we didn't join you in hating Clinton does not mean we weren't Sanders supporters. In fact, a very reasonable argument could be made that we were more supportive of him than you, despite your time and efforts, because you abandoned him before the election was over. I realize you will never agree with this argument, but it's a perfectly reasonable one. (And I'll reiterate that I donated both time and money to his campaign).

I've posted plenty of links that are critical of the DNC and Clinton, including my last one above that Feral Slasher responded to in a perfectly respectful manner. It's amazing to me that I have to constantly defend myself against your attacks when we agree on most of the issues. Except the critical issue of supporting or not supporting Clinton after Sanders did. I don't need to answer each of those questions because you already know the answers and the answers don't matter anyways. Sanders was able to move forward despite all of those inequities leveled against him, but an immature (IMO) segment of his supporters were unable to do so. So let's just accept that we disagree and move on. I don't sprinkle anti-Bernie Bro comments into my responses so I'm not sure why you feel the need to throw shade on the rest of us Sanders supporters who stuck with him until the end (and yes I mean supported Clinton as Bernie himself did against Trump, as did Noam Chomsky, and Glenn Greenwald, and most of the other voices on the Left, despite their reservations about Clinton).

[Redbirds Fan]

I thought Lucky voted for Clinton?

Nah, I was a Sanders supporter. But once he was out, there was no choice.

And I was really pissed at the arrogant, whiny, crybaby Sanders supporters, many of whom were total noobs, who just couldn't wrap their minds around the fact that Bernie had lost, so they just twisted off and went for Stein or did something equally stupid to prove how 'independent' they were.

[DMT]

Nah, I was a Sanders supporter. But once he was out, there was no choice.

As was ElD, who GITH again labeled a Clinton supporter, implying he was never a Sanders supporter.

[baldgriff]

I am still surprised at the amount of grief I took for voting third party. Given how terrible we all agree the "top two" candidates were.

[senorsheep]

But doing that towards anyone who supports a GOP candidate or, yes, even Trump is fair game and well-intended? I recognize you're asking for civility between fellow posters, but I think this request is helpful across the board in the general political discourse. I'd find this thread more useful if everyone stopped with their hyper-aggressive name calling. Respect yourself enough to stop name calling and being hyper-aggressive and others are likely follow. Be the change you want in the world, or something like that.

The ugly characterizations of conservative people in this forum is pretty much why I can't bring myself to post in threads like this one anymore. I'm never quite sure how broad a brush our lefty posters intend to paint with when they're in a political frenzy, but too many of them seem to go way too far way too often. I'm sure sometimes I misunderstand who exactly they're including when they refer to "Trump supporters."

We all see things through the prism of our own experience. I grew up in a very small, midwestern town, surrounded by conservative family members and friends. I was never a fan of the midwestern small town experience, and I moved to the big city (Denver) immediately upon graduating from the University of Illinois. But I still remember those folks - many of them quite fondly - and I admit that it does sting to hear people who know nothing about them so casually lump them in with the worst of humanity. I do know these people, and many of them are Trump voters. But they are nothing like the ridiculous caricatures bandied about here, and elsewhere.

I was blessed to be part of my mothers's big Irish Catholic family, scattered across small towns all along the Illinois river. These people were, and are still, some of the best people I've ever known. Big-hearted people who love to laugh and would welcome anyone into their communities. Nearly all of them are college educated. Many of them were/are teachers, and people who assist(ed) with the elderly, and people who did charitable work through their churches for the poor in their communities. And most of them are some mixture of conservatives, Republicans, and Trump voters.

The two Trump voters I know best are my parents. Both have masters degrees in education. Both spent their entire lives teaching and mentoring young people. My mom taught Kindergarten in my hometown for nearly four decades. She can't go out in public without five people rushing over to say "Hello" to Mrs. Lamb, who taught them, and/or their kids, and/or their grandkids. She's a local hero - everybody loves her. Even though she's a conservative Republican Trump voter.

Same goes for my dad - another teacher who over the years coached hundreds of kids in the junior high basketball program. He was the guy who taught his students (and his children) that it's wrong to be racist, and wrong to bully other kids because they're different, and wrong to look down on others because of their background. And he's a conservative Republican Trump voter.

Half my friends now are conservative Republicans who are, to varying degrees, Trump supporters. Half of my private poker league is comprised of the local police department, who are conservative Republican Trump voters. I interact with these folk behind the scenes, away from the public where they can be themselves. And they are most assuredly not racists, xenophobes, homophobes, or hooligans. Just decent folks who would go through a wall for you, and who just happen to hold some traditional conservative values that the Democratic Party seems to look down upon these days.

I'm no fool. I know there are regional pockets of humanity that are unintelligent, uneducated, and just plain rotten, and many of them responded to Trump's awful trolling and continue to act out in terrible ways. Many of them are responsible for propelling Trump to his primary win. At that point, a greater number of more civilized conservatives and Republicans were faced with an awful choice - go with Trump to end Democratic Party rule, or sit out the election, which just really isn't in the DNA of most conservative types. They chose to eat the Trump sh!t sandwich, knowing full well what was in it. That does not make them one and the same with the unintelligent, uneducated, and just plain rotten. I hope posters here will take a little more care to acknowledge that.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Again, in name only--in belief systems, you should have been as outraged as the rest of us, but from my perspective, you capitulated.

You see it as though you had no choice, but I think you do.

Advocate and work to change an obviously flawed system rather than go with the flow and reward someone for using it to gain advantage (and a little cheating)

I cannot fathom how you can support a man like Bernie who's entire existence is built on trust and integrity and then support someone who nomination was in part because of dishonest and unethical practice.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Nah, I was a Sanders supporter. But once he was out, there was no choice.

And I was really pissed at the arrogant, whiny, crybaby Sanders supporters, many of whom were total noobs, who just couldn't wrap their minds around the fact that Bernie had lost, so they just twisted off and went for Stein or did something equally stupid to prove how 'independent' they were.

At least this whiney little bitch didn't run away or change his name and pretend we're someone else like the rest of us are so stupid we couldn't figure it out in two posts. Nor do I continually delete my posts because I am exactly who I am and I don't have to hide it.

As for your sweat and blood in the system--The system is the problem and your contributing to it is one of many reasons why it hasn't changed.

I for one am doing what I can to be that change. I've no doubt that in the next 2 years you might see me on one of those town hall videos going at it with guys like Heller and anyone of my representatives who votes to continue the status quo.

I get it Lucky, you have no love or respect for me. Sad place to be from the guy I shared lunch with years ago. All I can say is, I'm not the one who changed and you know that's the truth.

[DMT]

The ugly characterizations of conservative people in this forum is pretty much why I can't bring myself to post in threads like this one anymore. I'm never quite sure how broad a brush our lefty posters intend to paint with when they're in a political frenzy, but too many of them seem to go way too far way too often. I'm sure sometimes I misunderstand who exactly they're including when they refer to "Trump supporters."

We all see things through the prism of our own experience. I grew up in a very small, midwestern town, surrounded by conservative family members and friends. I was never a fan of the midwestern small town experience, and I moved to the big city (Denver) immediately upon graduating from the University of Illinois. But I still remember those folks - many of them quite fondly - and I admit that it does sting to hear people who know nothing about them so casually lump them in with the worst of humanity. I do know these people, and many of them are Trump voters. But they are nothing like the ridiculous caricatures bandied about here, and elsewhere.

I was blessed to be part of my mothers's big Irish Catholic family, scattered across small towns all along the Illinois river. These people were, and are still, some of the best people I've ever known. Big-hearted people who love to laugh and would welcome anyone into their communities. Nearly all of them are college educated. Many of them were/are teachers, and people who assist(ed) with the elderly, and people who did charitable work through their churches for the poor in their communities. And most of them are some mixture of conservatives, Republicans, and Trump voters.

The two Trump voters I know best are my parents. Both have masters degrees in education. Both spent their entire lives teaching and mentoring young people. My mom taught Kindergarten in my hometown for nearly four decades. She can't go out in public without five people rushing over to say "Hello" to Mrs. Lamb, who taught them, and/or their kids, and/or their grandkids. She's a local hero - everybody loves her. Even though she's a conservative Republican Trump voter.

Same goes for my dad - another teacher who over the years coached hundreds of kids in the junior high basketball program. He was the guy who taught his students (and his children) that it's wrong to be racist, and wrong to bully other kids because they're different, and wrong to look down on others because of their background. And he's a conservative Republican Trump voter.

Half my friends now are conservative Republicans who are, to varying degrees, Trump supporters. Half of my private poker league is comprised of the local police department, who are conservative Republican Trump voters. I interact with these folk behind the scenes, away from the public where they can be themselves. And they are most assuredly not racists, xenophobes, homophobes, or hooligans. Just decent folks who would go through a wall for you, and who just happen to hold some traditional conservative values that the Democratic Party seems to look down upon these days.

I'm no fool. I know there are regional pockets of humanity that are unintelligent, uneducated, and just plain rotten, and many of them responded to Trump's awful trolling and continue to act out in terrible ways. Many of them are responsible for propelling Trump to his primary win. At that point, a greater number of more civilized conservatives and Republicans were faced with an awful choice - go with Trump to end Democratic Party rule, or sit out the election, which just really isn't in the DNA of most conservative types. They chose to eat the Trump sh!t sandwich, knowing full well what was in it. That does not make them one and the same with the unintelligent, uneducated, and just plain rotten. I hope posters here will take a little more care to acknowledge that.

In the few weeks up to and especially after the election, I was bombarded with FB posts labeling all Trump supporters X (bigots, racists, etc) and I did my best to combat this ridiculous mindset by posting articles showing the diversity of his voters as well as their very legitimate grievances.

However, I'll admit that I find it mind-boggling that these same people who aren't openly X could bring themselves to vote for Trump, who so clearly promoted those abhorrent ideas. And now they sit idly by while he follows through on those abhorrent ideas by crafting abhorrent policies, turning both the press and the judiciary into 'enemies'. Granted his numbers (if they can be believed) are dropping, but I still see too many people defending him. What will it take to open their eyes?