President Donald Trump

[chancellor]

Aaand...Rich Lowry says it even better than me (which is not surprising):

https://nypost.com/2018/09/24/the-assault-on-kavanaugh-is-proving-trump-voters-right/

[mjl]

on a less serious note, this is wonderful: https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...f-achievements

[Teenwolf]

So after having viewed Trump's speech at the UN, I'd like to ask Trump supporters, how does it feel to have your guy literally uproariously laughed at on the world stage after touting his accomplishments? Man, when he responds "I didn't expect that", and then the audience claps?!!! That's just so sad! Sympathy applause for a buffoon making them laugh!

I know Americans don't generally care what other nations think of them, but I hope a few of you were seriously disgusted at the US transformation into a literal laughing stock.

I'm enjoying it immensely from afar, while also recognizing it can't be good for the world to view its biggest superpower as a joke. This is what the rest of the world is thinking as they turn towards trade partnerships with other countries. But just keep telling yourself that as long as you "dont care", that it wont have an actual real-world impact.

He keeps raising the level of stupidity to bigger heights, particularly his newest campaign claim that "Democrats want to raid Medicare to pay for Socialism!"... Said it 2 weeks in a row at rallies, despite widespread criticism of the absurdity of it. I wonder how badly he's going to suppress Republican voting, since he keeps telling them it's going to be a "red tsunami" in November, and they believe it.

[B-Fly]

Actually, Jesse, I think the appearance of UN disrespect toward the US President plays quite well for Trump politically, as many independents are inclined to rally around the flag when the outside world disrespects us, and his base doesn't give a crap what the rest of the world thinks of him. As such, I don't really understand why many of my fellow American liberals seemed to delight in it. For non-Americans, I get it.

[baldgriff]

This is interesting--maybe not ideal for this thread, but I'd love to hear from the libertarian leaning folks here on their thoughts about how well Trump embodies libertarian ideals and how much he has done to push forward a libertarian agenda. Aside from rolling back regulations to make for a more business friendly environment, cutting taxes (mostly for corporations), and defunding social welfare programs, I don't know how Trump fits the bill as significantly advancing a libertarian agenda. I think most of his opponents in the primaries would have done those three things. I'd concede he has pushed forward a socially conservative agenda, but a true conservative would have taken into consideration what his tax policy would do to our national debt (an issues both parties have failed to address properly). He certainly has put up conservative judges, but again, would Cruz or Rubio, or even Kasich or Bush not done that, or cut taxes, or roll back some of the financial regulations, given the political climate at the moment? With Republican control in Congress, and a clear shift to the right, I just don't see anyone who would have won against HRC not doing this things. Maybe Trump has done some of these things more aggressively than they would have, but we are talking about a matter of degree not kind here, and is it really worth it for what else Trump brings to the table?

From SCOTUS thread:

Trump is far from Libertarian. Yes he has done some deregulation and cut some of the social program funding - He is a nationalist and a capitalist - his motivations are not coming from some desire to have smaller government. His motivation is how to make the economy spin - in his favor at best. Not taking a salary - Interesting concept.... not sure how it will actually play out in the actual tax world.

Again, from my Libertarian leaning POV - I really only see his 1st SCOTUS appointment as a real positive. Otherwise - hes a blustering wreck.

[Sour Masher]

From SCOTUS thread:

Trump is far from Libertarian. Yes he has done some deregulation and cut some of the social program funding - He is a nationalist and a capitalist - his motivations are not coming from some desire to have smaller government. His motivation is how to make the economy spin - in his favor at best. Not taking a salary - Interesting concept.... not sure how it will actually play out in the actual tax world.

Again, from my Libertarian leaning POV - I really only see his 1st SCOTUS appointment as a real positive. Otherwise - hes a blustering wreck.

Thanks baldgriff, for your reply and for moving this over where it belongs, and nots for your reply in the other thread. My sense is along the lines of what you post baldgriff--Trump is far from a libertarian. He is a nationalist and a capitalist, as you say. It is clear that if he had his way, there would be more centralized executive power in this country, not less. He regrets it now for other reasons, but his appointment of Sessions as AG was a clear early sign that he wanted government more in a lives not less. Sessions is not known for advocating for personal freedoms. Pence is another example of a pick that is far from libertarian. Many of his other picks are conservative, but certainly not libertarian, and the overall agenda leans toward government telling people what they can and cannot do with their bodies and each other.

Nots, as far as trump being the only GOP candidate who would have beaten HRC, I'd concede that other candidates would have had to take a different path to victory, but I certainty think it was doable. I'd wager Chance agrees with that too, given that he has said just about anyone but a very flawed candidate in HRC could have beaten Trump. I didn't like either at all, but I think Cruz and Rubio could have won. I also think Kasich could have won, not drawing from the far right, but from the middle.

[baldgriff]

Many of his other picks are conservative, but certainly not libertarian, and the overall agenda leans toward government telling people what they can and cannot do with their bodies and each other.

I would say that both parties lean toward having government telling people what they can and cannot do with their bodies, each other or in the privacy of their own home. They just view how to accomplish it in different ways. Government should not be telling anyone how to live their life in just about any aspect of our personal lives.

[Sour Masher]

I would say that both parties lean toward having government telling people what they can and cannot do with their bodies, each other or in the privacy of their own home. They just view how to accomplish it in different ways. Government should not be telling anyone how to live their life in just about any aspect of our personal lives.

Yeah, I wouldn't argue that Democrats are small government or libertarian at all (although on certain issues I'd argue progressive policies are more libertarian than conservative policies). I just think that libertarians often get identified as being on the right or even on the right of Republicans, and I don't see it as that simple, and I definitely don't see Trump as aligned with libertarians ideals.

[baldgriff]

I seem to recall during the election cycle that there were a number of people stating that Trump is not a Republican, and actually may be more of a Democrat. I think his "nationalism" is what speaks to many folks - not just those on the far right. There are plenty of middle of the road independents, conservatives and "classic liberals" that were frustrated with how the prior President didnt do simple things like "put his hand on his heart" during the National Anthem and tended to shy away from the America as a Great country. He certainly appeared less patriotic than any other President - and that stuck in people's craw.

As to policy - I think I have outlined a number of things I think we as a country should do that are in the Libertarian mindset. Trump would agree with maybe a few of them.

[Sour Masher]

I seem to recall during the election cycle that there were a number of people stating that Trump is not a Republican, and actually may be more of a Democrat. I think his "nationalism" is what speaks to many folks - not just those on the far right. There are plenty of middle of the road independents, conservatives and "classic liberals" that were frustrated with how the prior President didnt do simple things like "put his hand on his heart" during the National Anthem and tended to shy away from the America as a Great country. He certainly appeared less patriotic than any other President - and that stuck in people's craw.

As to policy - I think I have outlined a number of things I think we as a country should do that are in the Libertarian mindset. Trump would agree with maybe a few of them.

Huh, I hadn't heard/realized that Obama's lack of patriotism and his reluctance to boast of American exceptionalism were major drivers against him. I mean, he did well in both of his elections, so I guess I don't buy into or maybe fully understand how Trump's election is a referendum on Obama. I think Obama would have beat Trump if he could have run again.

As far as Trump agreeing with a few libertarian ideas, I put myself in that category too, but that doesn't make me a libertarian. I wanted to get a sense of those who do count themselves as libertarians (or if labels aren't your thing, as someone most sympathetic to libertarianism compared to the other choices), if they counted Trump's presidency as a win for libertarianism, or if they count him as champion their ideals. I'd heard conservatives make that claim about Trump, but before Chance's post, I hadn't considered Trump as bringing libertarians into his tent, or representing their values more than any other Republican president in recent memory.

[baldgriff]

As a Libertarian - Trump was not someone I voted for - or would ever actually vote for.

Part of that is because I believe that "choosing between the lesser of two evils" is no way to cast a vote.

[DMT]

Saying Trump has anything resembling a political philosophy is just ridiculous. He doesn't know shit about shit, as confirmed by nearly all his senior advisers the moment they departed.

[senorsheep]

Yeah, I wouldn't argue that Democrats are small government or libertarian at all (although on certain issues I'd argue progressive policies are more libertarian than conservative policies). I just think that libertarians often get identified as being on the right or even on the right of Republicans, and I don't see it as that simple, and I definitely don't see Trump as aligned with libertarians ideals.

The general consensus among the "big L" Libertarians (strict party adherents and idealogues) and "small l" libertarians (fiscally conservative social liberals who loosely identify with the movement) that I read is: "He's not grounded in any consistent philosophy of government, including ours." He sometimes delivers for (L/l)ibertarians while thrashing about, but these gifts seem to be random and poorly conceived, and are too often undercut by other bad policy decisions (e.g. - cutting the budgets of government departments, but then blowing up military spending). Then factor in the tariffs, his lack of attention to the deficit, his neo-con huffing and puffing, his authoritarian AG, his pro-surveillance appointees, his SC nominee who seems to take a dim view of the 4th Amendment - yeah, I don't think many big L's or small L's consider him an ally.

[Sour Masher]

The general consensus among the "big L" Libertarians (strict party adherents and idealogues) and "small l" libertarians (fiscally conservative social liberals who loosely identify with the movement) that I read is: "He's not grounded in any consistent philosophy of government, including ours." He sometimes delivers for (L/l)ibertarians while thrashing about, but these gifts seem to be random and poorly conceived, and are too often undercut by other bad policy decisions (e.g. - cutting the budgets of government departments, but then blowing up military spending). Then factor in the tariffs, his lack of attention to the deficit, his neo-con huffing and puffing, his authoritarian AG, his pro-surveillance appointees, his SC nominee who seems to take a dim view of the 4th Amendment - yeah, I don't think many big L's or small L's consider him an ally.

Got it. Thanks for the sum up. Yeah, I forgot some of these. It is ironic given he made some early bones criticizing neo cons, but he does engage in similar global posturing.

[Sour Masher]

Saying Trump has anything resembling a political philosophy is just ridiculous. He doesn't know shit about shit, as confirmed by nearly all his senior advisers the moment they departed.

I agree totally with the second sentence. As to the first, I think he does have a political philosophy--Anti-Obamaism. I really believe whenever he is faced with a tough choice, maybe about something he doesn't fully understand, he asks himself WWOD, and he does the opposite. It is like George Constanza in that episode where he did the opposite of what he thought he should do. Just like George, Trump doing the opposite of everything Obama would have done has worked well for him, at least with his base.