President Donald Trump

[Sour Masher]

Dude, you're wasting your time. Steve Bannon claims he's not an "elite" while staying in $1400/night room. Trump is a "self-made man" despite being given millions by his daddy. They simply aren't going to let you pin them down with facts.

Then their silence will speak volumes. We've danced around this issue in this thread for a long time, for fear of this thing getting really ugly. I think it is time for us to lay our cards on the table. I've laid it all out there. Either the Trump supporters here can answer my last two posts, or they cannot. If they cannot, then I can see no other reasonable conclusions for their continued support of Trump then 1. they are indifferent to his courtship of white nationalist hate groups, preferring to be okay with a racist-in-chief, as long as he cuts taxes and appoints the right SC judges, or 2. they are themselves at least partially sympathetic to such causes, and welcome a like-minded person being in office. If there is a third option, I welcome being corrected, because those two options depress the fuck out of me.

ETA: I know there is a third option for many Trump voters--they don't follow what he says and does that closely, and they aren't aware of what dog whistling even is. But that doesn't apply to any of the smart folks who post here.

[Judge Jude]

I'm not a Trump supporter, but you made better arguments before Trump/dog whistle/white supremacists

obviously 'but their support' is not enough.

so if you can "show work," I might well agree with you.
the "Mexicans are rapists" - while net net offensive, for instance, is not an in-context representation.

so anyone who would conclude that he called all Mexicans rapists would be an ignorant claim.

that said, I do suspect you can win my vote on this.

[Sour Masher]

JJ, I've tried to already show my work with my sampling of examples, and I'll add a few more. These things must be taken cumulatively, because together, they are what create the loudest whistle. In no real order:

1. Trump obsessively called into question the legitimacy of Obama being a president, calling him lazy, dumb, unqualified, unAmerican.
2. Trump claiming he forgot who David Duke was when asked if he would denounce his endorsement (even when being told who he was and what he believed), and being slow to denounce him and others like him. Speaking of Duke, here he is explaining why white supremacists voted for and support Trump: https://www.vox.com/2017/8/12/161383...david-duke-kkk
3. Trump denouncing brown/foreign mass shooters and criminals with lightening speed and very often with dehumanizing language, using terms like animals when referring to them and other black and brown criminals (not offensive to me on its own, given the crimes often involved), while being more measured in responding to white shooters/criminals, and rarely using terms like animals or thugs for them (this part is what makes the other a fear-mongering dog whistle to whites).
4. Related to the last point, Trump doubling down on the Central Park 5, AFTER they were exonerated by both DNA evidence and the confession of a serial rapist.
5. Clearly trying to limit the number of black and brown people entering this country while being okay with white people coming in, calling said black and brown people disease-ridden, criminals wallowing in shitholes, where they should apparently stay, unworthy of pursing the American Dream.
6. Getting back to his use of language, there was also that time Trump used the term "breeding" to refer to black and brown people growing in number in "sanctuary cities" (a term right out of the white supremacists playbook).

I could go on, but many of the examples I'd type up were already covered in this NYT article, which doesn't cover all his dog whistling, but does cover many examples of him being racist. You don't have to agree with them all to agree with the larger picture of Trump. Even if you don't, white supremacists do, because they use this same list to validate their support for him: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...etType=opinion

[revo]

Sour Masher is the poster I hope to become one day. The way you get your points across and your ability to phrase your questions is fantastic. And hey, I was a journalism minor (and editor of my college paper), so I should know how to write, LOL.

And let's not forget how every African-American he gets into a Twitter spat with is "Low IQ" or "Dumb" or "Stupid" -- always a knock on their intelligence.

[Sour Masher]

Sour Masher is the poster I hope to become one day. The way you get your points across and your ability to phrase your questions is fantastic. And hey, I was a journalism minor (and editor of my college paper), so I should know how to write, LOL.

I'm humbled by such high praise for someone I respect, and a guy who helps keep this site, which I've enjoyed and benefited from coming to, alive. Not sure if you hear it enough, but I know many of us appreciate you and Jason keeping this thing going. The baseball forums alone have been such a big part of my online life for years--and they've helped me win a few titles .

[Judge Jude]

JJ, I've tried to already show my work with my sampling of examples, and I'll add a few more. These things must be taken cumulatively, because together, they are what create the loudest whistle. In no real order:

1. Trump obsessively called into question the legitimacy of Obama being a president, calling him lazy, dumb, unqualified, unAmerican.

JUDGE: I'm not sure of those exact words, but the Obama birth certificate debacle means I'll give you this one.

2. Trump claiming he forgot who David Duke was when asked if he would denounce his endorsement (even when being told who he was and what he believed), and being slow to denounce him and others like him. Speaking of Duke, here he is explaining why white supremacists voted for and support Trump: https://www.vox.com/2017/8/12/161383...david-duke-kkk

JUDGE: David Duke is a red herring. it's so ridiculous to argue that he is a member of Trump's administration, or anything within a mile, that I hardly blame him for responding as unproductively.

3. Trump denouncing brown/foreign mass shooters and criminals with lightening speed and very often with dehumanizing language, using terms like animals when referring to them and other black and brown criminals (not offensive to me on its own, given the crimes often involved), while being more measured in responding to white shooters/criminals, and rarely using terms like animals or thugs for them (this part is what makes the other a fear-mongering dog whistle to whites).

JUDGE: not sure if he has called white killers "animals." I suspect he has, but not as often as blacks.

4. Related to the last point, Trump doubling down on the Central Park 5, AFTER they were exonerated by both DNA evidence and the confession of a serial rapist.

JUDGE: This one was going to be my next point, actually. I don't know if those young men even had serious records, but that travesty of justice means Trump should have apologized (which he doesn't do). this one is one of his worst episodes.

5. Clearly trying to limit the number of black and brown people entering this country while being okay with white people coming in, calling said black and brown people disease-ridden, criminals wallowing in shitholes, where they should apparently stay, unworthy of pursing the American Dream.

JUDGE: shitholes was a disaster, true. ok, this whole point is really damaging against him.

6. Getting back to his use of language, there was also that time Trump used the term "breeding" to refer to black and brown people growing in number in "sanctuary cities" (a term right out of the white supremacists playbook).

well, the issue of sanctuary cities is an interesting one. the left usually seems to like the federal government more. I don't really see a strong case for cities and states "trumping" the federal government when it comes to immigration - and making it strikes me as starting with the desired solution, then making up a weak argument to allow it. "breeding" is offensive in that context especially.

I could go on, but many of the examples I'd type up were already covered in this NYT article, which doesn't cover all his dog whistling, but does cover many examples of him being racist. You don't have to agree with them all to agree with the larger picture of Trump. Even if you don't, white supremacists do, because they use this same list to validate their support for him: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...etType=opinion

JUDGE: again, the fact that you think that a fringe group of white supremacists' support for Trump means anything at all is silly. have you ever called on Obama to condemn Louis Farrakhan and his group, for instance? there are countless wack jobs on both fringes, ok? cherry-picking one side and ignoring the other is not a productive way to have a discussion (and yes, the right does this with equal fervor).

[Sour Masher]

JUDGE: again, the fact that you think that a fringe group of white supremacists' support for Trump means anything at all is silly. have you ever called on Obama to condemn Louis Farrakhan and his group, for instance? there are countless wack jobs on both fringes, ok? cherry-picking one side and ignoring the other is not a productive way to have a discussion (and yes, the right does this with equal fervor).

Has Obama ever hired someone who made his living catering to hate groups, like Bannon did? Did he ever endorse a news outlet who was as fringe and hateful as Breitbart was at the time? You commented on my list and agreed with more than half of them, and if you clicked on the NYT link, I'm sure you'll find many more you'd agree with, but your main take away, despite the times Trump has been racist, and the times he clearly dog whistles and plays to WASP fears, the main thing you comment on at the bottom of the quote is we shouldn't blame Trump for the fact that he has unprecedented support from white supremacists and and white nationalists. Even though he not only is slow to denounce them, he retweets them: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/14/u...tity.html?_r=0. You know more about twitter than I do, JJ. Isn't it fair to say that when he retweets as good ideas tweets made by hate groups, that is a sign that he is agreeing with and courting those people?

You think there is no evidence that the reason why Trump has near universal and vociferous support from such groups is because of the way he acts and talks, because of his history of discrimination against black tenants, and the way he talks about people of color, and the way he tries to defend the "many good people" who traveled to Charlottesville not to defend a statue, but to declaim white superiority? Its all just a coincidence? It doesn't make you want to look a little closer at things you may think of as innocuous on their own that may be more insidious, like purposefully using the term breeding, to let certain folks know he thinks like them?

Do you think the quotes about blacks attributed to Trump in his earlier years are all lies? Trump admitted that what John O'Donnell attributed as quotes to him in his 1991 book were "probably true." The quote was about how he didn't want blacks counting his money, he only wanted Jews doing that. He said the black guy was lazy, but it wasn't his fault, because "laziness is a trait in blacks." Again, he admitted he "probably said that" in a 1997 Playboy interview: https://www.playboy.com/read/the-art-of-the-donald. I could go on, if you need me too--I didn't mention everything I could initially, because I didn't think more was needed to paint a picture of a man that is different enough from Obama that comparing the two on who they do or don't denounce is unneeded.

The bottom line is you didn't make it clear if you agree that Trump is racist and/or has courted and played to racists. Do you think either of those things are true? If so, do you think either of those facts should stop people from supporting him, regardless of what else they think of him?

[Judge Jude]

I don't think Trump hates black people, no. I think he is too focused on himself to care about anyone, hence the long litany of offensive comments. I'm not saying that to give him a pass, either. and yes, he does pander to his more mainstream racist-tending base.

"You know more about twitter than I do, JJ. Isn't it fair to say that when he retweets as good ideas tweets made by hate groups, that is a sign that he is agreeing with and courting those people?"

well, many people put in their bio something like "RTs not = endorsements; just something interesting."
I find that kind of lame. and again, I think Trump is just recognizing, "hey, this will fire my base up!"

he's so far off the grid in terms of personality that he becomes difficult to define. narcissists don't spend time thinking about anyone but themselves.

[Sour Masher]

I don't think Trump hates black people, no. I think he is too focused on himself to care about anyone, hence the long litany of offensive comments. I'm not saying that to give him a pass, either. and yes, he does pander to his more mainstream racist-tending base.

he's so far off the grid in terms of personality that he becomes difficult to define. narcissists don't spend time thinking about anyone but themselves.

We may disagree on the reason, but what you say about Trump makes me think we agree on what should be the result. America should not want this man reelected in 2020. A narcissist who will say anything to win, but does not care about anyone but himself, should not be the best we can elect as a country, or it is a sad state of affairs for us all.

[swampdragon]

I think it is more of an AND
Trump hates black people AND cares too much about himself to care about anyone else

[revo]

I think it is more of an AND
Trump hates black people AND cares too much about himself to care about anyone else

I don't think Trump "hates" black people (or Hispanics and women). But I do think he has ZERO respect for any of them and thinks of whites, and males, as rightful leaders, whether in business or in politics.

[Sour Masher]

I don't think Trump "hates" black people (or Hispanics and women). But I do think he has ZERO respect for any of them and thinks of whites, and males, as rightful leaders, whether in business or in politics.

That is my assessment too. Less hate than disrespect and disregard for those not like him (btw, hate is not an essential part of the definition of racism or what nationalism). The less like him someone is, the less he respects them. He is not the person that should be leading America.

[swampdragon]

OK - I will agree with Revo and SourMasher.

[chancellor]

So, on the foreign policy side, a big win in US-India relations:

https://news.usni.org/2018/09/09/new-india-u-s-arms-agreement-expanded-exercises-illustrate-growing-security-cooperation

With additional proper credit to the Obama administration AND Hillary Clinton. Hillary was the main driver in the prior administration for improved relations with India, and the above would not have been possible without her ground work.

[revo]

Here's what I don't understand about this guy. Why get caught in a lie that will take 20 seconds to fact check?