President Donald Trump

[Judge Jude]

"Just like his boy Rudy claiming truth isn't truth. Perception defines reality."

that's not really a fair description of that mangled syntax. neither was "Obama said that 'if you've got a business, you didn't build that'" - to give another oft-unfairly cited example.

in all cases, context is your friend.

it's scary how many people think that Sarah Palin said "I can see Russia from my house."
um, guys, that was Tina Fey.

this is what happened re Giuliani:

GIULIANI: Look, I am not going to be rushed into having him testify so that he gets trapped into perjury,” Giuliani said. “And when you tell me that, you know, he should testify because he’s going to tell the truth and he shouldn’t worry, well that’s so silly because it’s somebody’s version of the truth. Not the truth. He didn’t have a, a conversation …”

TODD: Truth is truth. I don’t mean to go like…

GIULIANI: No, it isn’t truth. Truth isn’t truth. The president of the United States says, “I didn’t…”

TODD: Truth isn’t truth? Mr. Mayor do you realize, what, I, I, I –

GIULIANI: No, no –

TODD: This is going to become a bad meme.

[the context of that is Giuliani's claim that if Trump tells the truth but Mueller decides to believe someone's contrary claim, maybe Mueller goes after Trump on perjury anyway. I can't stand Rudy, and I am skeptical of the argument. but that's the argument. yes, Rudy said "Truth isn't truth."]

...................

Obama's 2012 speech:

"There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me — because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t — look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. (Applause.)

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."

[the context of that is that it takes more than just individual effort. yes, Obama said "if you've got a business - you didn't build that."]

I'll just add that it seems like 90 percent of my fellow Americans have no interest whatsoever in context anymore. what a country. check which jersey the person is wearing, and then they'll know just how to think.

[Sour Masher]

Yes, context matters JJ, and I believe I understand the context of Rudy's statement JJ, and I still take umbrage with it.

Whereas you think it was about him claiming Trump told the Truth (capital T), but Mueller may decide he was lying because his account conflicts with others, I think he was at least in part implying that truth is subjective, and that two people could be telling their version of the truth, which conflicts, while not lying. Or that it doesn't even matter what is true, it matters what Mueller ends up believing is true in terms of a pursuing a perjury charge. There is some truth to that, and it is a very lawyerly perspective to take, but it is also slippery stage-setting, I think, for the inevitable reveal of times when Trump said something that conflicts with not just truth (lower case t in the sense of what Trump said vs what others said), but Truth, capital T, in the sense of verifiable, objective facts.

I am a believer in capital T truth. I do not think Rudy was championing capital T truth with his statement. That is the larger context for anything Guiliani says, and that context is important to keep in mind as well--he is a mouth piece for the most dishonest politician I've ever seen, and that is quite the distinction considering how much almost all politicians lie. So, his job is to spin his bosses words and actions in a favorable way. He serves Trump, not the Truth. Hell, I don't think his boss even believes in capital T Truth as an objective phenomena, or that such Truth can be revealed through the scientific method. As often as not, he seems to think his gut and intuition shape reality. That thought process was validated when he got elected. The jury is still out on whether his gut will prove truer than the majority of scientists on things like global warming, the dangers of asbestos, and the lack of danger of vaccines, not to mention the guilt or innocence of folks who he did not sit on a jury for, or how many millions of illegal votes there were for HRC, or the thousands who danced in the streets celebrating American deaths, or how tough and great he imagines he would have been if those darn bone spurs hadn't kept him from serving in the military.

Of course, since your truth of the context of Rudy's statement and mine conflict, I suppose we are both just dealing with little t truths here, and Truth is not truth, so we may both be telling the truth, but also disagreeing about the "facts" of what he said .

[Judge Jude]

"it doesn't even matter what is true, it matters what Mueller ends up believing is true in terms of a pursuing a perjury charge."

that is very clearly what he is claiming. and once one does that, then what he said makes sense. as I said, I can't stand the guy and I am skeptical about the legal argument. but it's very misleading the way most people are playing it.

I hope the Obama example offers a helpful contrast. it pissed me off to end to see how many right-wingers shamelessly took that quote out of context. I also happened to SEE the speech. Obama was always solid when on a teleprompter, but he didn't have one that day, and it was a hot day, and he rambled.

I appreciate your constructive feedback, but we're not going to get anywhere until both sides stick to actual reality. I mean, geesh, there has never been a more target-rich environment than now. why claim Giuliani was being 'Orwellian,' as some said, when he botched his claim of how it's naive to believe that as long as you tell the truth, nothing bad can ever happen by testifying.

that angle is more plausible, at least. and while I agree with a large portion of your overall post, I don't think you are evaluating "truth isn't truth" fairly.

I am sympathetic as to why. but still. you presumably nod your head at every word of my defense of Obama's comment there. go the distance, Sour Masher, go the distance.

[Sour Masher]

JJ, I do think I'm fair and take context into consideration when evaluating statements on both sides. I know what you are talking about, and I too have been annoyed when media on both sides take things out of context. Liberal media has been guilty of this with Trump's mouth pieces, and even what Trump himself has said, taking things out of context to twist it to make it worse than it was. As you say, why do that when you have so many legit things he says to focus on?

If you need an example of that, to prove my bona fide's as a reasonable person, I thought Trump's comments about PTSD, while inartful, were not meant to be as bad as many made them seem. I didn't jump on that boo-bandwagon, and there are many other examples of that as well. I don't think Rudy's statement is a great example of the thing you are railing against, though. At least not my take on his statement. I haven't been reading liberal media responses to Rudy on this, so I can't speak for them. I tried to lay out my take, and why I still didn't like the statement.

As far as the Obama example, I honestly saw nothing wrong with the statement on its face, so it doesn't ring as a great example for me. It seemed so obvious what he was saying, even out of context, it is hard for me to wrap my head around what others were trying to make it mean.

Edit: It occurs to me, maybe I should give you the friendly advice you gave me awhile back when I got caught in the outrage engine of the left/right media machine with that pedophile guy running for office. It ain't that bad. Don't get sucked into the click bait. Yes, people are playing into pre-existing narratives with Rudy's simple, out of context meme-able statement. I don't think I'm doing that, and I think more folks that you might think have seen the statement in context and have made up their own minds about it. As for me, I'm taking into context the larger trend in Guiliani's speeches and talks that suggest that while he may have been making a reasonable legal point, he has also been prone to larger philosophical musings of late, and I saw a double entendre with his word choice. I have seen it done by other Trump surrogates, where they have to spin so hard, the spin right away from the notion that anyone can know anything. I know, heady stuff. Silly stuff. But that is where some have gone in trying to defend Trump. I don't envy any of them. It is one hell of a tough job.

[Judge Jude]

interesting reply.

If I was a successful small businessman and proud of it, then I think I would be offended by "if you've got a business - you didn't build that."

I'd think, "I sure as hell did." and especially if I was a small-government conservative. it would come off as a liberal not respecting private individuals succeeding just fine without needing government help (note, I know it's more complicated than that).

and that was the right-wing radio meme for months. too bad it wasn't what Obama was actually trying to say.

I wasn't trying to take a shot at you personally in my initial post, but in retrospect I couldn't have blamed you if you thought I was. so thanks for that. we can agree to disagree with the Giuliani context. it WAS a weird comment.

[Sour Masher]

it WAS a weird comment.

He seems to be making a lot of weird comments lately. I will say, he has been entertaining. The strategy to put him out there to change the narrative and approach on Trump's legal issues has been really fascinating to watch. I don't think it is working well for Trump, but what do I know. Maybe he is being crazy like a fox. He seems to want to normalize and trivialize a lot of what Trump has done and said, in an effort to soften the blow of more such things being revealed, to get out ahead of things. IDK. Maybe it is/will work. What is your sense of Republican's thoughts on this strategy? Do folks you know on the right think this is an effective strategy?

[The Feral Slasher]

So telling that his criticism isn't about whether the articles are true or not, or whether the information provided by searches is factual and accurate but whether they are pro-him or anti-him. Why change yourself, when you can just control who reads what about you? Just like his boy Rudy claiming truth isn't truth. Perception defines reality.

Not unlike a certain admiral and his claims about John Brennan. Truth doesn't really matter for many

[Sour Masher]

Not unlike a certain admiral and his claims about John Brennan. Truth doesn't really matter for many

Haha, man, I guess I can't really blame you for seeing a chance to revive that, but do you really want to get back into that with Hornsby? Some but mostly

[The Feral Slasher]

Haha, man, I guess I can't really blame you for seeing a chance to revive that, but do you really want to get back into that with Hornsby? Some but mostly

Lol, for sure no, just making an obvious point

[Judge Jude]

I will apologize for the group for the lack of visceral hatred in recent posts

[Sour Masher]

I will apologize for the group for the lack of visceral hatred in recent posts

Yes, this thread is fueled by negative emotions. We need to get our game faces back on

Edit: No idea why I'm on such an emoji kick tonight.

[B-Fly]

Good discussion. As someone trained and somewhat experienced in criminal law, I do read Giuliani's statements in context much the way Judge Jude laid it out, but I also see Sour Masher's point re: double entendre and strategically playing the long game of trivializing and minimizing the president's long stream of known and yet-to-be-revealed false statements or culpable statements.

[revo]

Surprise: Don McGahn out.

[gcstomp]

why claim Giuliani was being 'Orwellian,' as some said

no one in this thread said this regarding Giuliani. I am sure I mentioned something a good month ago, about Trump and that word, pre Giuliani fumble. So lets say context.... I cant find post, but its nothing other than Trump lies a lot, consistently, and with a focus on creating a narrative with these lies that shapes dark policy that will be judged by history in a different light.

[swampdragon]

Surprise: Don McGahn out.

Trump said it in a tweet so it must be true.